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LATEST RATINGS: CBS Up in Viewers; DAYS plummets in 18-34 & 18-49
Topic Started: Jun 26 2008, 09:39 PM (3,342 Views)
PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 12:05 PM
And just one last thing on the Hogan vs. Higley thing. We can all be tired of it, but it is going to go on. We always compare.

I get tired of hearing how great Hogan Sheffer is or was or how great his writing team was - when I just don't see it. I get tired of hearing all the time how bad JER was or how great Sherri Anderson was when I found her overrated. and so on and so on.

We get tired of a lot of things. but the facts are the facts. Hogan was no better as a headwriter than Higley is. The only thing HS had for him was a bit stronger writing staff - his stories sucked just as bad as JER's did, just as bad as the ghost writers and just as bad as Higley's do.

When it all boils down to it - they all have a few different strong points - but in the end they all have the same weaknesses and that is they just aren't good headwriters.
Hate to keep quoting posts but I agree with this.

I like comparisons and I like discussing things back and forth like this. The only thing I will say is I think you have to give each HW 6 months before comparing them and both Higley and Hogan quality so why not?

I never thought JER was great. Not even during his first run. He went downhill for me after Maison Blanche. Yes, I found things entertaining. The Possession story was enjoyable to me only because of the J&M feelings aspect of it. The rest had alot of holes in it. Salem goes for the Kristen story. Loved her transformation into a vixen but the Kristen/Susan plot was a bit too much at times but the payoff was amazing. Most times, though, things dragged out way too much and there was just too much BS and plot holes at times.

Sheri Anderson, don't even get me started. Overrated is not even too strong a word. This woman is worshiped and I annoys the hell out of me but to each their own. I will say I enjoyed her last writing period more then her first. JER and her worked really good together IMO.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 12:08 PM
See I thought that summer was just as bad. It did not pick up for me at all until about September/October when Beth came on. The rest of that eyar and summer was a drag for me.
Oh, I see. Well, Beth came on in August and your right, around then is when it got better and did pick up steam so yeah I agree.
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IMissAremid
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After all... tomorrow is another day!

The post about the lack of a rooting couple on this show is so spot on.

In the span of the last two months of the show, DAYS will have royally pissed off people who have emotionally invested in the couples of Jarlena, Phloe, Lumi, Ejami, Chick. And I guess I can include Payla fans in this as well since the Ava thing was never really resolved and it has to grate that Ava gets more airtime than Payla. Oh and Shelle fans were written off a few months before that. I know a lot of folks decry the fanbase wars, and I do at times too, but seriously that is a lot of pissed off viewers and even if viewers don't ship one of these couples I could easily see all this turmoil driving even general fans to turn off the TV.

That leaves what? Bope who has no story and Stax, who no one but Ken Corday actually likes?

Frankly, I think there are too many unfamiliar faces and couplings on the screens right now. It's OK and good to mix some things up, but mixing everything up just breeds story chaos and if there's a proven recipe for soap ratings slides it typically involves chaos. Soaps need stability. They need familiar faces that can pull people back in, especially this time of year maybe kids or college students or teachers are watching soaps again regularly after not having watched for 9 months.

For someone who hasn't watched DAYS since last summer they will find on an almost daily basis Ava and Daniel, who they don't know at all, as well as Nicole who they won't know at all unless they started watching the show before 2006. They will also find a love triangle for Phillip between Morgan, who they won't know at all, and Chloe, who they won't know unless they were watching the show years ago. Oh and the one veteran who is on almost every day, John, is a totally different character than the old John these folks would have known in the past.

It's kind of crazy when you sit down and analyze it like this. I don't blame anyone for tuning out. What is there for someone to emotionally invest in?


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Kenny
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Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 11:59 AM
As I said last year with Hogan was boring. The summer before with the ghost writer was boring. The summer before that with JER was boring. This summer with Higley is boring. It is not about who it is writing - it is boring.
The reason the first six months of last year sucked to me is because the veterans were backburnered and newbies were shoved down our throats. I honestly didn't think the last six months of the year were bad at all. Call me crazy, but I believe Tom Casiello when he says that the writing team was forced to backburner the veterans for budgetary reasons, as directed by show producers. For that, I really can't fault Hogan. However, I do fault him for giving boring stories to the characters he could write for. I've never once said that he was perfect or without flaws... I just think he's better than Higley, LoL. His bad is better than Higley's bad. The only time I gave Hogan lots of praise was when he first came in in 2006 (because he was quite good then) and then when he turned the show around and gave us a great last half of 2007, because that last half (IMO) really was much better than the first.

The reason I'm giving Higley so much blame is because I know the characteristics and trademarks of her writing. I can tell when something is her idea and when it's not. Right now, so much of what I'm seeing is classic Higley -- the same Higley we saw in 2003. It's just my educated conclusion. The one thing I think Corday can be blamed for is forcing her to shove Max/Stephanie down our throats. That reeks of Corday because he's been DYING to re-create a new "Shelle."
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Steve Frame
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Sherri was only good to me when she was part of a strong writing team - like at first with Smith/DePreist and then even later assissting DePriest. But that was it.

And I will always blame JER for creating many of Days biggest problems. He to me is the one that created so much stuff that forever changed the direction of Days and to me caused it to become very much disregarded by many in the soap industry. He brought publicity to Days but I don't think that is always a good thing.

He and Gloria Monty I lump into a category together. They forever changed the face of daytime and the soaps they wrote for but they also caused more overall damage to daytime and the soaps they wrote. Monty is the one who created this soap opera supercouple craze and created this strive for the younger viewer. she created these big adventure stories that can't be done now that smaller budgets are the norms. And they are what fans want because that is what they go accustomed too. Too many of the older viewers who are used to soaps like they used to be have been alienated and are no longer around to watch anymore. They are the ones who appreciate the moments and not the adventures and events.

JER created this over the top stuff that so many of the soaps tried to duplicate after the possession story. That story alone caused Days more damage than anything. All the constant raisings from the dead, and over the top mess is what caused daytime soaps to be laughed at by so many outside the industry and even further looked down upon than they were in the first place.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

^Well, from the looks of things, most of the fans who are left are fans who started watching in recent years and I've noted that alot of fans of characters like Nicole and Chloe are the ones watching every day. Daniel does seem to have many fans, many of whom just like SC, and Ava has taken off as a character and Tamara is well-liked anyway. Morgan was kept around because many fans took to her so I don't think the new characters are the problem.

I think it's simply the show isn't exciting and hasn't been exciting for awhile now. Boredom is the most important factor in the ratings now. Boring=decline. It took awhile but I think that has become pretty evident, no matter how bad a show's writing or stories are that will now be what primarily affects the ratings it seems.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 12:18 PM
Sherri was only good to me when she was part of a strong writing team - like at first with Smith/DePreist and then even later assissting DePriest. But that was it.

And I will always blame JER for creating many of Days biggest problems. He to me is the one that created so much stuff that forever changed the direction of Days and to me caused it to become very much disregarded by many in the soap industry. He brought publicity to Days but I don't think that is always a good thing.

He and Gloria Monty I lump into a category together. They forever changed the face of daytime and the soaps they wrote for but they also caused more overall damage to daytime and the soaps they wrote. Monty is the one who created this soap opera supercouple craze and created this strive for the younger viewer. she created these big adventure stories that can't be done now that smaller budgets are the norms. And they are what fans want because that is what they go accustomed too. Too many of the older viewers who are used to soaps like they used to be have been alienated and are no longer around to watch anymore. They are the ones who appreciate the moments and not the adventures and events.

JER created this over the top stuff that so many of the soaps tried to duplicate after the possession story. That story alone caused Days more damage than anything. All the constant raisings from the dead, and over the top mess is what caused daytime soaps to be laughed at by so many outside the industry and even further looked down upon than they were in the first place.
Indeed he did. Years from now, JER will be looked at primarily as one of the killers of the genre. he may have brought ratings glory but it came with a price. Days has never recovered from that identity shift and the soaps that followed that trend never recovered either.
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Steve Frame
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Kenny
Jun 27 2008, 12:18 PM
Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 11:59 AM
As I said last year with Hogan was boring. The summer before with the ghost writer was boring. The summer before that with JER was boring. This summer with Higley is boring. It is not about who it is writing - it is boring.
The reason the first six months of last year sucked to me is because the veterans were backburnered and newbies were shoved down our throats. I honestly didn't think the last six months of the year were bad at all. Call me crazy, but I believe Tom Casiello when he says that the writing team was forced to backburner the veterans for budgetary reasons, as directed by show producers. For that, I really can't fault Hogan. However, I do fault him for giving boring stories to the characters he could write for. I've never once said that he was perfect or without flaws... I just think he's better than Higley, LoL. His bad is better than Higley's bad. The only time I gave Hogan lots of praise was when he first came in in 2006 (because he was quite good then) and then when he turned the show around and gave us a great last half of 2007, because that last half (IMO) really was much better than the first.

The reason I'm giving Higley so much blame is because I know the characteristics and trademarks of her writing. I can tell when something is her idea and when it's not. Right now, so much of what I'm seeing is classic Higley -- the same Higley we saw in 2003. It's just my educated conclusion. The one thing I think Corday can be blamed for is forcing her to shove Max/Stephanie down our throats. That reeks of Corday because he's been DYING to re-create a new "Shelle."
But see that is the way I feel about Hogan. I know his writing from watching him for almost 5 years on ATWT. I know how he writes and his characteristics and trademarks. And I know when something was 100% him and not Corday. And alot of the stuff that Corday gets the blame for during Hogan's stint was 100% the way Hogan wrote at ATWT. So if we compare characteristics and trademarks, Hogan has got to take more blame than he does because he set the standard for the way things were at ATWT.

And sorry I didn't enjoy any part of 2007 except for the first few weeks of January when the custody battle was going on. The other 48 weeks of 2007 were terrible as far as stories went. There were some gerat produced and acted moments, but the writing for the year stunk.
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Steve Frame
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IMissAremid
Jun 27 2008, 12:15 PM
The post about the lack of a rooting couple on this show is so spot on.

In the span of the last two months of the show, DAYS will have royally pissed off people who have emotionally invested in the couples of Jarlena, Phloe, Lumi, Ejami, Chick. And I guess I can include Payla fans in this as well since the Ava thing was never really resolved and it has to grate that Ava gets more airtime than Payla. Oh and Shelle fans were written off a few months before that. I know a lot of folks decry the fanbase wars, and I do at times too, but seriously that is a lot of pissed off viewers and even if viewers don't ship one of these couples I could easily see all this turmoil driving even general fans to turn off the TV.

That leaves what? Bope who has no story and Stax, who no one but Ken Corday actually likes?

Frankly, I think there are too many unfamiliar faces and couplings on the screens right now. It's OK and good to mix some things up, but mixing everything up just breeds story chaos and if there's a proven recipe for soap ratings slides it typically involves chaos. Soaps need stability. They need familiar faces that can pull people back in, especially this time of year maybe kids or college students or teachers are watching soaps again regularly after not having watched for 9 months.

For someone who hasn't watched DAYS since last summer they will find on an almost daily basis Ava and Daniel, who they don't know at all, as well as Nicole who they won't know at all unless they started watching the show before 2006. They will also find a love triangle for Phillip between Morgan, who they won't know at all, and Chloe, who they won't know unless they were watching the show years ago. Oh and the one veteran who is on almost every day, John, is a totally different character than the old John these folks would have known in the past.

It's kind of crazy when you sit down and analyze it like this. I don't blame anyone for tuning out. What is there for someone to emotionally invest in?


The couple stuff reminds me of JER's last stint. He had all the couples intermixed at that point. And he was greatly criticized for it.

I don't think the couple thing is the complete rating part, but it definitely is part of it. Days is in the last few years a couple show based on couple fans. So when you tick them off, you are going to suffer for it.

the new character thing I do think effects it too. As I said last year during the first part of the year, my friend who had just been laid off and returned home was so shocked not to find anyone on the show she knew. Fans of soaps esp. need familiarity. they need to feel invested in the characters. Sure some of them do get new fans but if you lose old fans then you are not gaining anything.

I think those 2 things and the boring stories add up to the ratings decline. But it is the same thing going on with every show almost right now. There are either too many new characters, too many characters on way too much, or boring stories going on across the board. And people are just frustrated. Basically they are as mad as hell and they aren't going to take it anymore.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

The difference between now and what JER did though is that he fucked with the supercouples back during a time when that actually impacted the ratings (I don't think it does too much now). Right now, the couples Higley is mixing up I don't think is the problem nor do I think it's new characters. I still think it's more or less boredom and I also think writing inconsistencies (dropping Steve/Ava, the mess Sami has become, etc) and the lack of story for Bo and Hope and Steve and Kayla also play major roles. I also think, as much as I like the Max story, no one cares enough about him yet and the fact that Stax was forced on people has people rejecting that story too. It's a combination of these factors, I think.
Edited by PhoenixRising05, Jun 27 2008, 12:50 PM.
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Charmqn
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DOOL sucks...I don't care if there is a tiny improvement. The majority of viewers don't want to watch the adventures of Stax and Chan...they don't care about them. They want their vets, the people they are used to...Bope, Steve/Kayla,Jarlena, etc....

How about you run episodes of what happens backstage(gossip, BI, whatever) that is more of a soapopera then DOOL is right now.
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King
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DAYS is pretty much screwed no matter what they do.

I think Corday calls the shots with the stories, and the headwriter takes his ideas and delegates to the staff writers and the breakdown writers. It has been this way ever since Langan. IMO.

I am really just bored with soaps. I guess it is natural if you watch something for 15 years??? I don't know.
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Sindacco
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IMissAremid
Jun 27 2008, 12:15 PM
For someone who hasn't watched DAYS since last summer they will find on an almost daily basis Ava and Daniel, who they don't know at all, as well as Nicole who they won't know at all unless they started watching the show before 2006. They will also find a love triangle for Phillip between Morgan, who they won't know at all, and Chloe, who they won't know unless they were watching the show years ago. Oh and the one veteran who is on almost every day, John, is a totally different character than the old John these folks would have known in the past.

It's kind of crazy when you sit down and analyze it like this. I don't blame anyone for tuning out. What is there for someone to emotionally invest in?


So with that kind of thinking you are basically saying that the show should never create any new characters from September to May because the viewers that watch during the summer wont know who they are? Seems kinda of silly to me to adjust the show to people that aren't even regular viewers.

As for emotionally invest, I assume you never watch movies? How could you? A movie is usually 2 hours, that wouldn't be enough time for you to get emotionally invested, am I right?
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Kenny
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Sindacco
Jun 27 2008, 01:44 PM
So with that kind of thinking you are basically saying that the show should never create any new characters from September to May because the viewers that watch during the summer wont know who they are? Seems kinda of silly to me to adjust the show to people that aren't even regular viewers.

As for emotionally invest, I assume you never watch movies? How could you? A movie is usually 2 hours, that wouldn't be enough time for you to get emotionally invested, am I right?
Well, new characters are necessary to a soap. One of my favorite things in the world is stumbling upon a new soap to watch with characters that are all new to me -- yet despite not knowing any of them or any of their relationships, I can still manage to enjoy the show if they're written interestingly and if the stories they're in are gripping.

I don't think the problem is "too many new characters" necessarily, it's that they're all in shit stories and non-stories. It's also annoying that virtually every new character comes on Days the same way... hiding a secret, leaving viewers wondering whether or not they're "good" or "bad," and as a result they're written very ambiguously and cliche. I call it the Patrick Lockhart syndrome. They're just never worth a shit.
Edited by Kenny, Jun 27 2008, 01:58 PM.
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Sindacco
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Charmqn
Jun 27 2008, 12:59 PM
DOOL sucks...I don't care if there is a tiny improvement. The majority of viewers don't want to watch the adventures of Stax and Chan...they don't care about them. They want their vets, the people they are used to...Bope, Steve/Kayla,Jarlena, etc....

How about you run episodes of what happens backstage(gossip, BI, whatever) that is more of a soapopera then DOOL is right now.
In the 80s when todays vets were newbies did people complain? Or was vets like Mickey and Maggie, Doug and Julie still on much in their own stories?
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Sindacco
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Steve Frame
Jun 27 2008, 12:18 PM
Sherri was only good to me when she was part of a strong writing team - like at first with Smith/DePreist and then even later assissting DePriest. But that was it.

And I will always blame JER for creating many of Days biggest problems. He to me is the one that created so much stuff that forever changed the direction of Days and to me caused it to become very much disregarded by many in the soap industry. He brought publicity to Days but I don't think that is always a good thing.

He and Gloria Monty I lump into a category together. They forever changed the face of daytime and the soaps they wrote for but they also caused more overall damage to daytime and the soaps they wrote. Monty is the one who created this soap opera supercouple craze and created this strive for the younger viewer. she created these big adventure stories that can't be done now that smaller budgets are the norms. And they are what fans want because that is what they go accustomed too. Too many of the older viewers who are used to soaps like they used to be have been alienated and are no longer around to watch anymore. They are the ones who appreciate the moments and not the adventures and events.

JER created this over the top stuff that so many of the soaps tried to duplicate after the possession story. That story alone caused Days more damage than anything. All the constant raisings from the dead, and over the top mess is what caused daytime soaps to be laughed at by so many outside the industry and even further looked down upon than they were in the first place.
You can blame JER for the destruction of DAys or whatever you wanna call it but how can you blame him for the whole daytime? If other soaps wanted to write more like him it's not his fault, it's their own.
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Steve Frame
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New characters usually matter most to viewers who have tuned out for awhile. It is harder for them to readjust as they don't feel invested and are looking for the familiar. There are some that like the new characters, but they are rare. It takes time in a soap opera to get invested in them.

As to comparing it to a movie, soap opera viewing and movie viewing are 2 totally different things.

Soap operas are supposed to be ongoing plots among a group of characters that the audience knows and loves.

When we tune in to Desperate Housewives, we expect to see a story about Bree, Susan, Gabi or Lynette. When people think AMC, they general think Erica or years ago it was Phoebe or the Martins. ATWT fans have come to think of the Hughes, Carly, the Snyders and so on.

Soap opera fans (at least the die hards) tune in to see stories about characters they know and love - characters who are like family to them. Many have talked about how Alice Horton has become like a 2nd grandmother to them. That is the way many feel about Nancy Hughes on ATWT. Many are like best friends to them - like sisters, brothers, etc. They feel like they know them. They grow up with them.

Soaps don't seem to embrace that anymore like they used too. When an old fan of a show tunes back in, often times they are looking for that family member - that familiar character - someone to latch onto again. Many times in present day soaps they don't find them anymore.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

King
Jun 27 2008, 01:40 PM
DAYS is pretty much screwed no matter what they do.

I think Corday calls the shots with the stories, and the headwriter takes his ideas and delegates to the staff writers and the breakdown writers. It has been this way ever since Langan. IMO.

I am really just bored with soaps. I guess it is natural if you watch something for 15 years??? I don't know.
I agree.

Even I am beginning to find myself bored with soaps in general. It's just so difficult, especially at Days, to tell stories due to the limitations set by fanbases and it's very hard when the character the fans want the most have been through almost everything so anything you give them is going to be "been there, done that." It's Days' fault for conditions fans to this but I do think they should've broke the trend awhile ago and began passing the torch. Now it's just too late because people want what they want and the people that matter in the numbers could care less unless you are blowing something up or something.
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Steve Frame
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Sindacco
Jun 27 2008, 01:58 PM
Charmqn
Jun 27 2008, 12:59 PM
DOOL sucks...I don't care if there is a tiny improvement. The majority of viewers don't want to watch the adventures of Stax and Chan...they don't care about them. They want their vets, the people they are used to...Bope, Steve/Kayla,Jarlena, etc....

How about you run episodes of what happens backstage(gossip, BI, whatever) that is more of a soapopera then DOOL is right now.
In the 80s when todays vets were newbies did people complain? Or was vets like Mickey and Maggie, Doug and Julie still on much in their own stories?
I will answer that - yes they were.

Back then true and good soap writers knew taht you gradually blended in your new characters with the old. The old characters were right there in stories right along with the new and helped to introduce them.

you hardly ever had a story that was led by a newcomer - they were right along with a veteran character or characters. And the older generation was blended with the younger generation in stories too.

In the late 70's, AW had one of the biggest teen scenes on daytime, but the teens even during the summer didn't have the only stories going or run the show. They had Joey, Jamie, Blaine, Dennis, Cecile, Eileen, Morgan, Sally and many others. It was a big teen scene at the time, but the vets and older characters were still very much a part of their story. Joey & Eileen's tragic love story was as much about their parents as it was them. Jamie & Dennis' problems very much affected the stories for their parents while they got stories going. Jamie's problems with Blaine are what kicked off the last big story for Mac & Rachel - the quadrangle with Mitch and Janice.
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Sindacco
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Kenny
Jun 27 2008, 01:55 PM
Sindacco
Jun 27 2008, 01:44 PM
So with that kind of thinking you are basically saying that the show should never create any new characters from September to May because the viewers that watch during the summer wont know who they are? Seems kinda of silly to me to adjust the show to people that aren't even regular viewers.

As for emotionally invest, I assume you never watch movies? How could you? A movie is usually 2 hours, that wouldn't be enough time for you to get emotionally invested, am I right?
Well, new characters are necessary to a soap. One of my favorite things in the world is stumbling upon a new soap to watch with characters that are all new to me -- yet despite not knowing any of them or any of their relationships, I can still manage to enjoy the show if they're written interestingly and if the stories they're in are gripping.

I don't think the problem is "too many new characters" necessarily, it's that they're all in shit stories and non-stories. It's also annoying that virtually every new character comes on Days the same way... hiding a secret, leaving viewers wondering whether or not they're "good" or "bad," and as a result they're written very ambiguously and cliche. I call it the Patrick Lockhart syndrome. They're just never worth a shit.
I agree with you. But I have seen so many others complain about it. Everytime there is a new character people will say something sarcastic like "oh great, another newbies just what we need" or some shit like that.

I understand that viewers don't want new characters pushed down their throats, neither do I but I do think it's necessary with new characters sometimes.

As for Patrick Lockhart :puke:
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