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Dena Higley QUITS — SUDS REPORT EXCLUSIVE; Breaking News — TVGC; ATWT actor FIRED
Topic Started: Jul 26 2008, 06:10 PM (133,355 Views)
ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 05:26 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 04:41 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 03:29 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 02:55 PM
Kenny
Jul 30 2008, 07:36 AM
Mason
Jul 29 2008, 11:55 PM
Jiggs
Jul 29 2008, 11:54 PM
I hope the same goes for Tom Casiello.
Why? What did he do that was so terrible?
I think he mentioned in an interview once that Hogan's team didn't understand J&M or it took him a while to understand them or something... and with J&M fans, that's the bottom line. You don't understand J&M and you're a terrible writer, apparently, LoL.
Only problem with your theory is, if he doesn't get J&M, and doesn't get Marlena, then it's a good bet that he doesn't get a lot of other characters and couples either. I wouldn't want to take that chance.
Not necessarily. I've always understood Bo, Hope, Steve and Kayla's appeal (as well as other couples that are off the show - like Jack & Jennifer), Sami and Lucas, etc. But I have never really understood John and Marlena's appeal to fans. Why they are so popular and whatnot. I mean, I can kinda understand Marlena being as popular as she is. I mean when she's written well, Deidre hits it on all cylinders and makes the character worth watching (eg. late last year).. but John? Well he never appealed to me until they infused some character and personality into him with NuJohn.

For all the stuff Casiello, Sheffer and the rest of that writing team are getting, no one's pointed out that they may not have gotten John and Marlena, but they did find a way to make it so they would want to write for them. And in a way that played on history (ie. Stefano's mind-warping of John) and evolved a character into something interesting (ie. milquetoast John into robotic, brutally honest and witty John) that they would want to write for. So I think they deserve a little bit of credit for trying on that end. It makes me wonder about what would've happened had the strike been averted and the direction Sheffer would have taken them in.
The difference is you are a viewer, not the head writer. I don't get all the characters or couples either, but I'm not hoping to be the head writer either. They are paying this person millions to know this stuff... if they don't get a well established character or couple then they oughtta do a little research and try to figure it out.

As for them changing John into a character they want to write for, that's fine if they choose to do that and they get some new fans for the character, but they risk alienating the fans that did love the old John. I mean, why don't they do that to all the established characters? Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door? Since I'm not necessarily a Bo fan, I might enjoy that! But I doubt long time Bo fans would like it. And that's the risk they take.

Of course they could have pleased all fans by bringing back this nuJohn and also keeping it a J&M story and slowly integrating new and old John together and showing the connection J&M have had no matter what his name has ever been. But they chose not to go that route, and so you have J&M fans tuning out because they don't like nuJohn and can't root for him, but you have a smaller group who finds the character entertaining but who probably aren't that invested in him in the long run.

There's nothing wrong with taking a character that is bland and trying to make something of him.
I could be wrong, but I don't think head writers make "millions".

And yeah, I'm a viewer. But how else do you start to understand a character than by watching them? I've never seen John's appeal. I mean, I understand he's a good guy with a pretty interesting history and his feuding with Stefano is pretty entertaining.. but. I just never understood why he alone appealed to anyone.

I was just saying that they took a stale character and injected new life into him without changing history or anything of the usual "change the character to fit the story" stuff that has been done with others in the past. They, at least, gave a good reason as to his change in character and personality. And I'm sure there's many interesting avenues they could go with him regaining his memories, while maintaining the entertaining qualities he got as a result of his change.

Bo doesn't need that. Nor does Steve. The history and character traits of those two are interesting and the actors play it up as they should... I mean. Well, look. John's always been a big part of the show and he has this cool history to his character that's undergone so many things.. but the performance, execution and writing of John Black never achieved the heights of cool and edgy that his history should warrant. He was a conman, assassin, mercenary used by Stefano to get what he wanted. He probably lived a thousand lives before he came to Salem and it just never came across on the screen. He came off artificial and fake, like some kinda uncle at a family reunion.. but now? He's pretty awesome. Witty as fuck, dresses sharp, and just has this blunt attitude about all things. And he has that villainous edge.
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ges
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Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door?


that would be fun. I also agree that robojohn is a keeper. Although he hasn't been as witty as usual. Must be low on coke in the studio. Coca Cola.
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ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

ges
Jul 30 2008, 05:44 PM
Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door?


that would be fun. I also agree that robojohn is a keeper. Although he hasn't been as witty as usual. Must be low on coke in the studio. Coca Cola.
Except that if Bo did that to Hope, Hope would turn around and kick him in the balls.
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Hergie23
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Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 05:26 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 04:41 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 03:29 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 02:55 PM
Kenny
Jul 30 2008, 07:36 AM
Mason
Jul 29 2008, 11:55 PM
Jiggs
Jul 29 2008, 11:54 PM
I hope the same goes for Tom Casiello.
Why? What did he do that was so terrible?
I think he mentioned in an interview once that Hogan's team didn't understand J&M or it took him a while to understand them or something... and with J&M fans, that's the bottom line. You don't understand J&M and you're a terrible writer, apparently, LoL.
Only problem with your theory is, if he doesn't get J&M, and doesn't get Marlena, then it's a good bet that he doesn't get a lot of other characters and couples either. I wouldn't want to take that chance.
Not necessarily. I've always understood Bo, Hope, Steve and Kayla's appeal (as well as other couples that are off the show - like Jack & Jennifer), Sami and Lucas, etc. But I have never really understood John and Marlena's appeal to fans. Why they are so popular and whatnot. I mean, I can kinda understand Marlena being as popular as she is. I mean when she's written well, Deidre hits it on all cylinders and makes the character worth watching (eg. late last year).. but John? Well he never appealed to me until they infused some character and personality into him with NuJohn.

For all the stuff Casiello, Sheffer and the rest of that writing team are getting, no one's pointed out that they may not have gotten John and Marlena, but they did find a way to make it so they would want to write for them. And in a way that played on history (ie. Stefano's mind-warping of John) and evolved a character into something interesting (ie. milquetoast John into robotic, brutally honest and witty John) that they would want to write for. So I think they deserve a little bit of credit for trying on that end. It makes me wonder about what would've happened had the strike been averted and the direction Sheffer would have taken them in.
The difference is you are a viewer, not the head writer. I don't get all the characters or couples either, but I'm not hoping to be the head writer either. They are paying this person millions to know this stuff... if they don't get a well established character or couple then they oughtta do a little research and try to figure it out.

As for them changing John into a character they want to write for, that's fine if they choose to do that and they get some new fans for the character, but they risk alienating the fans that did love the old John. I mean, why don't they do that to all the established characters? Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door? Since I'm not necessarily a Bo fan, I might enjoy that! But I doubt long time Bo fans would like it. And that's the risk they take.

Of course they could have pleased all fans by bringing back this nuJohn and also keeping it a J&M story and slowly integrating new and old John together and showing the connection J&M have had no matter what his name has ever been. But they chose not to go that route, and so you have J&M fans tuning out because they don't like nuJohn and can't root for him, but you have a smaller group who finds the character entertaining but who probably aren't that invested in him in the long run.

There's nothing wrong with taking a character that is bland and trying to make something of him.
I could be wrong, but I don't think head writers make "millions".

And yeah, I'm a viewer. But how else do you start to understand a character than by watching them? I've never seen John's appeal. I mean, I understand he's a good guy with a pretty interesting history and his feuding with Stefano is pretty entertaining.. but. I just never understood why he alone appealed to anyone.

I was just saying that they took a stale character and injected new life into him without changing history or anything of the usual "change the character to fit the story" stuff that has been done with others in the past. They, at least, gave a good reason as to his change in character and personality. And I'm sure there's many interesting avenues they could go with him regaining his memories, while maintaining the entertaining qualities he got as a result of his change.

Bo doesn't need that. Nor does Steve. The history and character traits of those two are interesting and the actors play it up as they should... I mean. Well, look. John's always been a big part of the show and he has this cool history to his character that's undergone so many things.. but the performance, execution and writing of John Black never achieved the heights of cool and edgy that his history should warrant. He was a conman, assassin, mercenary used by Stefano to get what he wanted. He probably lived a thousand lives before he came to Salem and it just never came across on the screen. He came off artificial and fake, like some kinda uncle at a family reunion.. but now? He's pretty awesome. Witty as fuck, dresses sharp, and just has this blunt attitude about all things. And he has that villainous edge.
Everyone makes good arguments but it is all a moot point b/c these are your opinions. I am with Jiggs b/c I loved John the way he was. But that is just my opinion. He appealed to me very much so. Those other characters don't appeal to me at all. But Jiggs makes a great point in that we, that have loved John Black for the last 22 years, are very invested in the character of John. And those that find him entertaining now are not so invested that they will stop watching if he gets his memories back. You have others on the show that appeal to you. I am just saying while the character of John doesn't appeal to some, he appeals to many of us, while the characters of Bo and Steve don't appeal to me at all. And that's fine. I would say that the characters of Bo and Steve need something infused into them to make them more interesting to me while I don't think John does. But I would never campaign for them to be changed b/c I realize that the characters are popular to a great many fans and they would feel the way I do about John if the same happened to them. John Black/Drake Hogestyn has a huge fanbase that came about before he was ever changed and that wasn't because he acted like a robotic asshole. It is because he was kind, generous, loving, romantic, and a hero.

To each his own but opinions cannot be considered as facts.
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Matt
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Classic Soap Fan

:lol: I remember that fight scene when Larry Welch had kidnapped Hope. She nearly beat the crap out of him before he eventually got he better of her. Hope William Brady -- debutante, society girl, spoiled rich girl, former fashion model, cop, ass kicker supreme.
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Jiggs
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Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 05:26 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 03:29 PM


I could be wrong, but I don't think head writers make "millions".

And yeah, I'm a viewer. But how else do you start to understand a character than by watching them? I've never seen John's appeal. I mean, I understand he's a good guy with a pretty interesting history and his feuding with Stefano is pretty entertaining.. but. I just never understood why he alone appealed to anyone.

I was just saying that they took a stale character and injected new life into him without changing history or anything of the usual "change the character to fit the story" stuff that has been done with others in the past. They, at least, gave a good reason as to his change in character and personality. And I'm sure there's many interesting avenues they could go with him regaining his memories, while maintaining the entertaining qualities he got as a result of his change.

Bo doesn't need that. Nor does Steve. The history and character traits of those two are interesting and the actors play it up as they should... I mean. Well, look. John's always been a big part of the show and he has this cool history to his character that's undergone so many things.. but the performance, execution and writing of John Black never achieved the heights of cool and edgy that his history should warrant. He was a conman, assassin, mercenary used by Stefano to get what he wanted. He probably lived a thousand lives before he came to Salem and it just never came across on the screen. He came off artificial and fake, like some kinda uncle at a family reunion.. but now? He's pretty awesome. Witty as fuck, dresses sharp, and just has this blunt attitude about all things. And he has that villainous edge.
I know James Reilly made millions. Not sure about others.

I thought we were talking about writers getting or not getting a character/couple, not what viewers get or don't get?

It's only your opinion that the character was stale. I think Bo is stale, as are Hope, and several others that I personally don't get the appeal of. A writer is suppose to understand why a character like John has been popular all these years. When they killed off John I certainly didn't write in for them to bring him back because I wanted him back as some completely new character. That said, it was interesting at first, but once it became clear that he wasn't going to progress in any way shape or form, and that Marlena wasn't going to be a part of it, I lost interest.

Your opinion of who John was is completely biased, as is your claim that Bo nor Steve don't need any changes to make them more interesting. I could give you reasons why I find John much more interesting than I do Bo or Steve, but it's just my opinion. When you're talking about a writer, who is trying to save a show, they probably shouldn't alienate the fans that loved John for all the years he's been on screen. Sure you think he's a hoot now, but it doesn't appear that the ratings are reflecting that sentiment. But like I said, if they want to just keep this new John like this and forget about his past and end J&M, then they should go for it. But they shouldn't blame me (or other fans) if we tune out.


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jules


Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 05:59 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 05:26 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 03:29 PM


I could be wrong, but I don't think head writers make "millions".

And yeah, I'm a viewer. But how else do you start to understand a character than by watching them? I've never seen John's appeal. I mean, I understand he's a good guy with a pretty interesting history and his feuding with Stefano is pretty entertaining.. but. I just never understood why he alone appealed to anyone.

I was just saying that they took a stale character and injected new life into him without changing history or anything of the usual "change the character to fit the story" stuff that has been done with others in the past. They, at least, gave a good reason as to his change in character and personality. And I'm sure there's many interesting avenues they could go with him regaining his memories, while maintaining the entertaining qualities he got as a result of his change.

Bo doesn't need that. Nor does Steve. The history and character traits of those two are interesting and the actors play it up as they should... I mean. Well, look. John's always been a big part of the show and he has this cool history to his character that's undergone so many things.. but the performance, execution and writing of John Black never achieved the heights of cool and edgy that his history should warrant. He was a conman, assassin, mercenary used by Stefano to get what he wanted. He probably lived a thousand lives before he came to Salem and it just never came across on the screen. He came off artificial and fake, like some kinda uncle at a family reunion.. but now? He's pretty awesome. Witty as fuck, dresses sharp, and just has this blunt attitude about all things. And he has that villainous edge.
I know James Reilly made millions. Not sure about others.

I thought we were talking about writers getting or not getting a character/couple, not what viewers get or don't get?

It's only your opinion that the character was stale. I think Bo is stale, as are Hope, and several others that I personally don't get the appeal of. A writer is suppose to understand why a character like John has been popular all these years. When they killed off John I certainly didn't write in for them to bring him back because I wanted him back as some completely new character. That said, it was interesting at first, but once it became clear that he wasn't going to progress in any way shape or form, and that Marlena wasn't going to be a part of it, I lost interest.

Your opinion of who John was is completely biased, as is your claim that Bo nor Steve don't need any changes to make them more interesting. I could give you reasons why I find John much more interesting than I do Bo or Steve, but it's just my opinion. When you're talking about a writer, who is trying to save a show, they probably shouldn't alienate the fans that loved John for all the years he's been on screen. Sure you think he's a hoot now, but it doesn't appear that the ratings are reflecting that sentiment. But like I said, if they want to just keep this new John like this and forget about his past and end J&M, then they should go for it. But they shouldn't blame me (or other fans) if we tune out.


Excellent post Jiggs. Thank you!
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phloeishot
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This is my opinion on Jawn... I like him and I think he's funny but I think they should have started to bring back some of the old John, so he could be a combination of the two. And I didn't think it was necessary for them to add Ava to J&M's storyline; although I feel bad for TB, they just didn't know what to do with her character. They could have had Marlena helping Jawn to get his memories back or have something trigger a memory.
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DolceDiMera
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I like the new John but I do want the old John back. NuJohn is missing so many elementsof the John that I came to adore. He's not loving, tender, and romantic, for starters. I do like the snark of NuJohn, and he used to be hugely entertaining, but he has this flat personality now. I think they should bring back Old John but incorporate some of the endearing aspects of NuJohn into his persona. I know how it feels though to have your character undergo a transformation and not be fond of it, they did it to my favorite character for a while, but thankfully he's gotten his balls back.
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SpriteEyes
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ladyofthelake
Jul 30 2008, 05:45 PM
ges
Jul 30 2008, 05:44 PM
Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door?


that would be fun. I also agree that robojohn is a keeper. Although he hasn't been as witty as usual. Must be low on coke in the studio. Coca Cola.
Except that if Bo did that to Hope, Hope would turn around and kick him in the balls.
And then throw him in jail and dare Roman to get him out.
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lilacwine
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I could have cared about nuJohn more if they left Claire around longer... that showed the other side to him. I did enjoy him more in the beginning but I'm getting a bit bored.

But, I wasn't happy where John was before this either...
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SoapGal1
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Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 05:26 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 04:41 PM
Shylock
Jul 30 2008, 03:29 PM
Jiggs
Jul 30 2008, 02:55 PM
Kenny
Jul 30 2008, 07:36 AM
Mason
Jul 29 2008, 11:55 PM
Jiggs
Jul 29 2008, 11:54 PM
I hope the same goes for Tom Casiello.
Why? What did he do that was so terrible?
I think he mentioned in an interview once that Hogan's team didn't understand J&M or it took him a while to understand them or something... and with J&M fans, that's the bottom line. You don't understand J&M and you're a terrible writer, apparently, LoL.
Only problem with your theory is, if he doesn't get J&M, and doesn't get Marlena, then it's a good bet that he doesn't get a lot of other characters and couples either. I wouldn't want to take that chance.
Not necessarily. I've always understood Bo, Hope, Steve and Kayla's appeal (as well as other couples that are off the show - like Jack & Jennifer), Sami and Lucas, etc. But I have never really understood John and Marlena's appeal to fans. Why they are so popular and whatnot. I mean, I can kinda understand Marlena being as popular as she is. I mean when she's written well, Deidre hits it on all cylinders and makes the character worth watching (eg. late last year).. but John? Well he never appealed to me until they infused some character and personality into him with NuJohn.

For all the stuff Casiello, Sheffer and the rest of that writing team are getting, no one's pointed out that they may not have gotten John and Marlena, but they did find a way to make it so they would want to write for them. And in a way that played on history (ie. Stefano's mind-warping of John) and evolved a character into something interesting (ie. milquetoast John into robotic, brutally honest and witty John) that they would want to write for. So I think they deserve a little bit of credit for trying on that end. It makes me wonder about what would've happened had the strike been averted and the direction Sheffer would have taken them in.
The difference is you are a viewer, not the head writer. I don't get all the characters or couples either, but I'm not hoping to be the head writer either. They are paying this person millions to know this stuff... if they don't get a well established character or couple then they oughtta do a little research and try to figure it out.

As for them changing John into a character they want to write for, that's fine if they choose to do that and they get some new fans for the character, but they risk alienating the fans that did love the old John. I mean, why don't they do that to all the established characters? Kill off Bo and bring him back with a new fun personality that snarks at all the Brady's and throws Hope's head into a door? Since I'm not necessarily a Bo fan, I might enjoy that! But I doubt long time Bo fans would like it. And that's the risk they take.

Of course they could have pleased all fans by bringing back this nuJohn and also keeping it a J&M story and slowly integrating new and old John together and showing the connection J&M have had no matter what his name has ever been. But they chose not to go that route, and so you have J&M fans tuning out because they don't like nuJohn and can't root for him, but you have a smaller group who finds the character entertaining but who probably aren't that invested in him in the long run.

There's nothing wrong with taking a character that is bland and trying to make something of him.
I could be wrong, but I don't think head writers make "millions".

And yeah, I'm a viewer. But how else do you start to understand a character than by watching them? I've never seen John's appeal. I mean, I understand he's a good guy with a pretty interesting history and his feuding with Stefano is pretty entertaining.. but. I just never understood why he alone appealed to anyone.

I was just saying that they took a stale character and injected new life into him without changing history or anything of the usual "change the character to fit the story" stuff that has been done with others in the past. They, at least, gave a good reason as to his change in character and personality. And I'm sure there's many interesting avenues they could go with him regaining his memories, while maintaining the entertaining qualities he got as a result of his change.

Bo doesn't need that. Nor does Steve. The history and character traits of those two are interesting and the actors play it up as they should... I mean. Well, look. John's always been a big part of the show and he has this cool history to his character that's undergone so many things.. but the performance, execution and writing of John Black never achieved the heights of cool and edgy that his history should warrant. He was a conman, assassin, mercenary used by Stefano to get what he wanted. He probably lived a thousand lives before he came to Salem and it just never came across on the screen. He came off artificial and fake, like some kinda uncle at a family reunion.. but now? He's pretty awesome. Witty as fuck, dresses sharp, and just has this blunt attitude about all things. And he has that villainous edge.
That's a good summary Shylock. I liked John alot in the beginning, but over the years, he just got boring....now I LOVE the NuJohn!!
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koos


John stopped being interesting in the late '90s. Marlena, too... at least she isn't as saccharine now as she has been in the past, though. She was pretty much unbearable throughout the second half of the '90s up until recently, IMO.
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Drew
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I dont get why some fans are still trying to force John and Marlena on us all when even the actors playing them dont even want to be coupled anymore.
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Mason


Drew
Jul 30 2008, 08:53 PM
I dont get why some fans are still trying to force John and Marlena on us all when even the actors playing them dont even want to be coupled anymore.
Because for them, without J&M, there is no show, and thus, no reason to continue watching.
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OneBadKitty
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Am I the only one that thinks this whole incident is going to just fade into the woodwork, which actually may be a good thing?
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phloeishot
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Well whether you like J&M or not they are a major part of DOOL just like Bope, Payla, J & J = Supercouples. And they have a large fanbase.
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Matt
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Classic Soap Fan

OneBadKitty
Jul 30 2008, 09:23 PM
Am I the only one that thinks this whole incident is going to just fade into the woodwork, which actually may be a good thing?
Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. You *know* no one involved wants this all to get out and I seriously doubt they'll issue any kind of a statement unless WGA issues a statement or legal papers come to light (like that cease and desist order). However, those aware of the issues will surely be watching the show closely in the coming weeks and attempting to pick apart every scene, wondering "hmmm... *who* wrote that?" Maybe some months down the road, someone (singular or plurel) will quietly leave with the reason given being a generic one and some people might go "hmmmm..." I'm sure the entire set is on some sort of lockdown with explicit instructions not to discuss it, but you know how people talk. Someone will say something and a BI will get posted somewhere about it. Or maybe someone will leave dramaticly and will blow the lid off the whole thing in a tell-all interview with the soap press. Or someone will slip up in an interview and say something they shouldn't have (and then, of course, the offical word would be that it was taken out of context). You never know.
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lascuba


OneBadKitty
Jul 30 2008, 09:23 PM
Am I the only one that thinks this whole incident is going to just fade into the woodwork, which actually may be a good thing?
I agree. The whole thing is just too bizarre to not be a huge exaggeration, even for Days.
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Hergie23
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Drew
Jul 30 2008, 08:53 PM
I dont get why some fans are still trying to force John and Marlena on us all when even the actors playing them dont even want to be coupled anymore.
Well I don't think that is true. Drake is having fun with his new character but they both know the importance of their coupling. They always have. And they both know they will end up together in the end. And I know Dee is a big supporter. If they weren't still very important to the show, then the play-by-play of their story would not be on the cover of the mags every week. Not that it should matter what the actors want anyway, as demonstrated by this so-called Diva who is claiming to write the show. They are paid to act, not write.
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