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Rumor: Ali Sweeney to be FIRED from DOOL?
Topic Started: Sep 16 2008, 12:15 PM (20,364 Views)
ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

cjknick
Sep 21 2008, 09:50 AM
Alligato
Sep 21 2008, 09:29 AM
Fuzzy
Sep 21 2008, 12:34 AM
Personally, I think it's because she wants EJ for Nicole. Nicole's obviously her pet--she brought her back, and since then she's the only character with anything resembling sympathetic writing.
Correct me if I am wrong...and I am sure someone will...but according to an interview with Ari, she was approached before the Christmas holidays to return to Days and couldn't say anything until after March or something when the papers reported her return to Days.

So I am not sure if Dena brought Ari in. Either Hogan or Ed or Corday did. And I am not sure when they decided to do the EJ/Nicole thing because at first, I thought it was supposed to be Nicole and Phillip...this was while EJ and Sami were knocking boots in May.
Then Lucas returns (was that Higley's decision?) Sami goes insane trying to get him back and tells EJ to buzz off...so he goes into Nicole's orbit and then they have sexavator.

So I am not sure if Nicole is Higley's creation, but I will say that Dena knows how to write her over any other character.
If I had to guess who Dena likes to write for my guess like everyone else would be Nicole! I think Nicole is really the only character that Dena has written well. It seems to me that the characters that Dena does not like are Sami and Marlena they are the characters she has written the worst.

There are no emmy moments for any of these actors that I can think of since Dena has written them ... can anyone think of any standout scenes that are emmy worthy?????
You can say the same thing about a lot of them, from other writers, over the years, really, despite the fact we did have Emmy nominees.
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DolceDiMera
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Nicole has been well written compared to the other characcters. That's not to say Higley's crafted her brilliantly, because Nicole is missing some of her distinguishing qualities that I found endearing about her. She's not nearly as independent and kick ass as she used to be. I'd also love to see her head back to the office, she used to be quite business savvy and I wish they would show that side of her again. I don't want to see Nicole turned into a heroine like Sheffer did with Sami, it was a disaster for her and would probably be a disaster for Nicole too.
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ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

DolceDiMera
Sep 21 2008, 10:33 AM
Nicole has been well written compared to the other characcters. That's not to say Higley's crafted her brilliantly, because Nicole is missing some of her distinguishing qualities that I found endearing about her. She's not nearly as independent and kick ass as she used to be. I'd also love to see her head back to the office, she used to be quite business savvy and I wish they would show that side of her again. I don't want to see Nicole turned into a heroine like Sheffer did with Sami, it was a disaster for her and would probably be a disaster for Nicole too.
Exactly. It's all a matter of perception. Nicole detractors are upset because she's getting screentime, and many Nicole fans don't like the nuances Dena's giving her. I wouldn't like her to become glitterfied, either. A beautiful, shades of gray, bad-boy bad girl relationship with EJ is just what I think this show needs. What EJami COULD have been.
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sungrey


Kyrai
Sep 17 2008, 06:15 AM
sungrey
Sep 17 2008, 04:47 AM
Put it this way... for all those of us who write on DRTV, Soap Opera Network, etc.

Say you've written a strong scene or two. You put your heart and soul and one hour into writing a really strong scene that you think resonates with the audience.

Then you go online after you've posted your material and find someone's changed your dialogue and stage manners, lessening the impact of the scene.

Wouldn't you be pissed? I know I would. That's why I'll staunchly defend the WGA position. Whoever was at fault here has to be punished somehow. Yes, you may not care about the writer or the writing (and I'm not Dena's biggest fan, let's put it this way), but the guild is the guild.
I understand empathizing with the writers, but how about the actors and fans?

These actors have invested a good part of their lives in their characters. As a fan, I've invested a good deal of my life in these characters. Now because Higley is a writer, it's perfectly fine if she comes in and trashes these characters and history that I love because she's lazy and talentless? The way she writes they may as well new actors playing these characters. If I had played a character for fifteen years or more, I think as a person, I'd be incensed over them just killing that character.

This is not a black and white, 'it's wrong' issue imo. They have rules for a reason, but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. Killing someone is a crime, but if it's self-defense, it's not. There ARE extenuating circumstances in life. IMO, Higley is murdering a good many characters during her reign of terror. I, for one, am glad Ed tried to do something to stop her, and if Ali, or MBE, or SN, or anyone tried to save these wonderful characters against a talentless hack, more power to them. I wish ALL of the cast would rebel. I'm sure there may have been better ways for them to handle this, but I have no idea what all went on behind the scenes. It seems like Corday wants the show to fail, and some cared enough that they didn't want that to happen. I just can't be upset with people who love it as much as I do and tried to save it. It doesn't mean I want actors to write the show, but I'm saying I can understand their temptation and utter frustration.

Writers aren't the only ones who should have rights. I guess the WGA doesn't care about quality at all, but maybe they should.

Kyrai, you're right on that remark too! I support the guild position, but some writers indeed make it difficult. ;)
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Fuzzy


I'm not upset about Nicole gettting good writing. I'm not even upset about her airtime. Although I do think it's a bit much, most characters get their turn at the frontburner. I'm upset that other characters are damaged to make her look good. Chloe looks like an idiot being friends with her after everything Nicole did to over Brady. The Phillip that I know wouldn't be all supportive after she tried to kill his father. And EJ would not think that Nicole calling the police about Sami is "adorable." He loves Allie, and the last thing he would want is for Sami to lose custody because that means EJ will never see her again.

But I'm most upset about Sami. No, Hogan didn't do her any favors, but he wasn't the one who turned her into a Belle wannabee who pouts when she can't have two men. Dena had her have sex with EJ, not because she had feelings for him, but because she wanted to spite Nicole. Sami's done a lot of things for spite--but she's never slept with a man she wasn't in love with. I do think that Sami has real feelings for EJ, but having her spout how angry she was with Nicole right in the afterglow--well, let's just say it wasn't her finest moment. And it only got worse from there.
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Ellie


River
Sep 21 2008, 07:18 AM
Excellent post. It seems that since Ms. Higley took the reigns in late January, she has been on one long power trip. Belle and Shawn were young core characters in a lead story, and they were unceremoniously shoved out the door at Ms. Higley's bequest. Next Mr. Sheffer's writing staff was deliberately fired one week before the strike ended, so that Ms. Higley could assemble her own "talent pool". (Whatever one's opinion of Mr. Sheffer's episodes, his dialogue writers were some of the best in the business, so this was unnecessary and very damaging to fragile state of Days.) Then Ms. Higley went directly to the media with her complaints about Mr. Scott's writing adjustments to ensure that he was terminated, and she was successful in that, as well causing several Mr. Scott's hires to walk in protest. Finally, between her "diva" allegations against Ms. Sweeney and her systematic destruction of Sami's character, she has apparently been gunning for Ms. Sweeney for some time. Nothing against Ms. Zucker, but the writing for Nicole is so much stronger, more flattering and sympathetic for her character, than it is for Sami or even Marlena, that the character is fast becoming Days' version of AMC's Babe. I also will second other posters in saying that I don't watch Days for stories about autism or lung cancer, not because I can't relate to these issues, but because I can. Days has been the escapist, romantic soap with stories centered around the Bradys and Hortons for the past quarter century, and for the show to have any chance for survival on NBC or on another network, it needs to get back to that, and to get rid of Ms. Higley, ASAP.
River
 
Phoenix, in regard to your rather prominent banner, I should make clear that up until a few months ago, I watched 95% of Days without fast-forwarding, which means that I am a front row survivor of Higley 03 and her work in the winter/spring of 08, not to mention her tenure on OLTL. This summer I have often found myself regularly watching the first fifteen minutes and then deleting the rest of the episode., and that is rare for me. I stuck with the excruciatingly silly airplane plot last summer, but at least that was intercut with two stories using Belle and Sami that I enjoyed. I am not permanently stuck in the 80s, but I did consider Mr. Sheffer's biggest mistake to be not involving the vets in the vendetta, or for that matter not using Days veterans very much at all. But for Ms. Higley to enter stage right and make Max, Nicole and Theo's autism the center of the show, when the show is in real danger of cancellation, is counterintuitive. There isn't a story there that is more than mildly interestly, and where have the fan favorites (as opposed to Ms. Higley's) been? Even when Marlena or Sami have shown up, they haven't been written in character. As others have posted, Bo and Hope get occasional theme-based episodes, but they have not gotten a long term story. Steve and Kayla are rarely used at all, and the show's best young actor, Ms. Melvin, was given a romantic interest that did not suit the character or the actors involved. Stefano's return has been botched (despite an excellent opening during the Olympics) by having him live in the same house with John and all the rest. There have been a few good episodes under Ms. Higley, but overall, she has been far inferior to what she replaced, despite her use of popular vets like Mr. Hogestyn. And from the entertainment perspective, she has been unceasingly dull compared to most of James Reilly's work. Her lack of compelling stories, combined with her backstabbing rampage, means that Days would be better off without her.


Just catching up on this thread, but River, you've explained this so clearly, and I agree 100%. Excellent, excellent posts.
Edited by Ellie, Sep 21 2008, 09:56 PM.
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Nicole Walker


I happen to like Marlena right now. I couldn't stand her before. I also love Nicole's character right now. As for Sami, I've never been a fan of hers. I could tolerate her in the past but now it's unbearable. I just want her to shut up and not say a word. I do agree that the writing for Sami has changed.
Edited by Nicole Walker, Sep 21 2008, 10:34 PM.
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ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

Fuzzy
Sep 21 2008, 09:16 PM
I'm not upset about Nicole gettting good writing. I'm not even upset about her airtime. Although I do think it's a bit much, most characters get their turn at the frontburner. I'm upset that other characters are damaged to make her look good. Chloe looks like an idiot being friends with her after everything Nicole did to over Brady. The Phillip that I know wouldn't be all supportive after she tried to kill his father. And EJ would not think that Nicole calling the police about Sami is "adorable." He loves Allie, and the last thing he would want is for Sami to lose custody because that means EJ will never see her again.

But I'm most upset about Sami. No, Hogan didn't do her any favors, but he wasn't the one who turned her into a Belle wannabee who pouts when she can't have two men. Dena had her have sex with EJ, not because she had feelings for him, but because she wanted to spite Nicole. Sami's done a lot of things for spite--but she's never slept with a man she wasn't in love with. I do think that Sami has real feelings for EJ, but having her spout how angry she was with Nicole right in the afterglow--well, let's just say it wasn't her finest moment. And it only got worse from there.
This is all probably true, but I was already tired of Sami by the time Dena got on board. It was during the Sheffer years that it was "All EJami, all the time", almost, and as far as I'm concerned, she was ruined. The only thing that has saved EJ for me is the fact that he's being put with someone else, and as far as I'm concerned, I've noticed a distinct change in the EJ attitude with Nicole, and I like it. So, I guess I'm hot and cold about Dena. I don't like a lot of what she's done, but I do like what she's done with Nicole. Except for the Chloe fruit roll-up incident, I've liked Nicole ever since I started watching again three or so years ago. I really liked her with Sami in comedic scenes. Now, if Dena screws that up or misses that boat, I might be upset. UNLESS all the backstage crap is true, and people in general are pissed at Ali because she's the diva, and that spark is gone, I really want to see more Sami/Nicole scenes like that. I doubt that there's dissent with Ali backstage, but you never know.
It goes back to the old adage "Leave them wanting more". I got so much of Sami, I was saturated, and I don't want more. Not unless it's the old Sami.
And, it doesn't even bother me that Chloe is friends with Nicole. Look at Hope and Lexie. You think they should be friends again after what Lexie did with Zach? Or Hope and Chelsea. Shoot, with Hogan, you wouldn't think Mimi would roll over and help Shawn and Belle escape with Claire, or that Shawn and Belle would ASK Mimi to do that. Sami made peace with oldJohn before the accident. Making peace with an enemy isn't anything new if it helps the direction of the story or really, isn't necessary. Is it necessary that Chloe and Nicole be enemies now? I don't think so.
After all, didn't Sami get Heroine-ized by Sheffer? The snarky Sami who was always after revenge when she got hurt was the Queen of Perfect just last year. The very thing that got some people turned off to her. Why is this any different than Nicole?
And I don't exactly see Chloe and Nicole being best of buds. I think Chloe is still written as being wary of Nicole, which is good. And I think Nicole realizes that.
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ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

Ellie
Sep 21 2008, 09:52 PM
River
Sep 21 2008, 07:18 AM
Excellent post. It seems that since Ms. Higley took the reigns in late January, she has been on one long power trip. Belle and Shawn were young core characters in a lead story, and they were unceremoniously shoved out the door at Ms. Higley's bequest. Next Mr. Sheffer's writing staff was deliberately fired one week before the strike ended, so that Ms. Higley could assemble her own "talent pool". (Whatever one's opinion of Mr. Sheffer's episodes, his dialogue writers were some of the best in the business, so this was unnecessary and very damaging to fragile state of Days.) Then Ms. Higley went directly to the media with her complaints about Mr. Scott's writing adjustments to ensure that he was terminated, and she was successful in that, as well causing several Mr. Scott's hires to walk in protest. Finally, between her "diva" allegations against Ms. Sweeney and her systematic destruction of Sami's character, she has apparently been gunning for Ms. Sweeney for some time. Nothing against Ms. Zucker, but the writing for Nicole is so much stronger, more flattering and sympathetic for her character, than it is for Sami or even Marlena, that the character is fast becoming Days' version of AMC's Babe. I also will second other posters in saying that I don't watch Days for stories about autism or lung cancer, not because I can't relate to these issues, but because I can. Days has been the escapist, romantic soap with stories centered around the Bradys and Hortons for the past quarter century, and for the show to have any chance for survival on NBC or on another network, it needs to get back to that, and to get rid of Ms. Higley, ASAP.
River
 
Phoenix, in regard to your rather prominent banner, I should make clear that up until a few months ago, I watched 95% of Days without fast-forwarding, which means that I am a front row survivor of Higley 03 and her work in the winter/spring of 08, not to mention her tenure on OLTL. This summer I have often found myself regularly watching the first fifteen minutes and then deleting the rest of the episode., and that is rare for me. I stuck with the excruciatingly silly airplane plot last summer, but at least that was intercut with two stories using Belle and Sami that I enjoyed. I am not permanently stuck in the 80s, but I did consider Mr. Sheffer's biggest mistake to be not involving the vets in the vendetta, or for that matter not using Days veterans very much at all. But for Ms. Higley to enter stage right and make Max, Nicole and Theo's autism the center of the show, when the show is in real danger of cancellation, is counterintuitive. There isn't a story there that is more than mildly interestly, and where have the fan favorites (as opposed to Ms. Higley's) been? Even when Marlena or Sami have shown up, they haven't been written in character. As others have posted, Bo and Hope get occasional theme-based episodes, but they have not gotten a long term story. Steve and Kayla are rarely used at all, and the show's best young actor, Ms. Melvin, was given a romantic interest that did not suit the character or the actors involved. Stefano's return has been botched (despite an excellent opening during the Olympics) by having him live in the same house with John and all the rest. There have been a few good episodes under Ms. Higley, but overall, she has been far inferior to what she replaced, despite her use of popular vets like Mr. Hogestyn. And from the entertainment perspective, she has been unceasingly dull compared to most of James Reilly's work. Her lack of compelling stories, combined with her backstabbing rampage, means that Days would be better off without her.


Just catching up on this thread, but River, you've explained this so clearly, and I agree 100%. Excellent, excellent posts.
How is this firing any different than any other firings that take place once a new "regime" is put into place? Didn't this also happen when Sheffer took over? The only difference is that between Reilly and Sheffer, there were transitional writers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but several of those transitional writers were shown the door when Sheffer took over. Ditto when Ed Scott became EP. Didn't he bring in his own crew?
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Kyrai


Ellie
Sep 21 2008, 09:52 PM
River
Sep 21 2008, 07:18 AM
Excellent post. It seems that since Ms. Higley took the reigns in late January, she has been on one long power trip. Belle and Shawn were young core characters in a lead story, and they were unceremoniously shoved out the door at Ms. Higley's bequest. Next Mr. Sheffer's writing staff was deliberately fired one week before the strike ended, so that Ms. Higley could assemble her own "talent pool". (Whatever one's opinion of Mr. Sheffer's episodes, his dialogue writers were some of the best in the business, so this was unnecessary and very damaging to fragile state of Days.) Then Ms. Higley went directly to the media with her complaints about Mr. Scott's writing adjustments to ensure that he was terminated, and she was successful in that, as well causing several Mr. Scott's hires to walk in protest. Finally, between her "diva" allegations against Ms. Sweeney and her systematic destruction of Sami's character, she has apparently been gunning for Ms. Sweeney for some time. Nothing against Ms. Zucker, but the writing for Nicole is so much stronger, more flattering and sympathetic for her character, than it is for Sami or even Marlena, that the character is fast becoming Days' version of AMC's Babe. I also will second other posters in saying that I don't watch Days for stories about autism or lung cancer, not because I can't relate to these issues, but because I can. Days has been the escapist, romantic soap with stories centered around the Bradys and Hortons for the past quarter century, and for the show to have any chance for survival on NBC or on another network, it needs to get back to that, and to get rid of Ms. Higley, ASAP.
River
 
Phoenix, in regard to your rather prominent banner, I should make clear that up until a few months ago, I watched 95% of Days without fast-forwarding, which means that I am a front row survivor of Higley 03 and her work in the winter/spring of 08, not to mention her tenure on OLTL. This summer I have often found myself regularly watching the first fifteen minutes and then deleting the rest of the episode., and that is rare for me. I stuck with the excruciatingly silly airplane plot last summer, but at least that was intercut with two stories using Belle and Sami that I enjoyed. I am not permanently stuck in the 80s, but I did consider Mr. Sheffer's biggest mistake to be not involving the vets in the vendetta, or for that matter not using Days veterans very much at all. But for Ms. Higley to enter stage right and make Max, Nicole and Theo's autism the center of the show, when the show is in real danger of cancellation, is counterintuitive. There isn't a story there that is more than mildly interestly, and where have the fan favorites (as opposed to Ms. Higley's) been? Even when Marlena or Sami have shown up, they haven't been written in character. As others have posted, Bo and Hope get occasional theme-based episodes, but they have not gotten a long term story. Steve and Kayla are rarely used at all, and the show's best young actor, Ms. Melvin, was given a romantic interest that did not suit the character or the actors involved. Stefano's return has been botched (despite an excellent opening during the Olympics) by having him live in the same house with John and all the rest. There have been a few good episodes under Ms. Higley, but overall, she has been far inferior to what she replaced, despite her use of popular vets like Mr. Hogestyn. And from the entertainment perspective, she has been unceasingly dull compared to most of James Reilly's work. Her lack of compelling stories, combined with her backstabbing rampage, means that Days would be better off without her.


Just catching up on this thread, but River, you've explained this so clearly, and I agree 100%. Excellent, excellent posts.
I agree with this synopsis as well.

I watch to escape for entertainment as well. While I will watch for a compelling 'rl' story, the autism story is interesting, but uninvolving to me. I've always loved Abe, so I'm not upset that he's being used. I just don't find this story compelling. I had worse times with my own children in public than the scenes that Lexie is so emotionally distraught over. I can understand how traumatic autism is, but losing it because your son throws a spoon (I could give you more horror!). I just don't think this autism story is being done well. Similarly, I hate cancer stories because my father and several friends have suffered and died from cancer, but I loved the Mike/Margot, John/Isabella cancer stories of the past because as painful as they were, the stories moved me.

I'm disgusted with Higley's trashing of core characters to further her agenda. I don't mind Nicole getting good lines and being funny and interesting, but not if she's the ONLY character written well and other characters are decimated for it.

Lately, the writing seems better, and I hope it's because of the change in writers, but I still feel like Higley should be let go for the shabby awful job that she has done.
Edited by Kyrai, Sep 22 2008, 07:41 AM.
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Paxton
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Dreaming of a Melanie-free Days

ladyofthelake
Sep 22 2008, 06:04 AM
And, it doesn't even bother me that Chloe is friends with Nicole. Look at Hope and Lexie. You think they should be friends again after what Lexie did with Zach? Or Hope and Chelsea. Shoot, with Hogan, you wouldn't think Mimi would roll over and help Shawn and Belle escape with Claire, or that Shawn and Belle would ASK Mimi to do that. Sami made peace with oldJohn before the accident. Making peace with an enemy isn't anything new if it helps the direction of the story or really, isn't necessary. Is it necessary that Chloe and Nicole be enemies now? I don't think so.
After all, didn't Sami get Heroine-ized by Sheffer? The snarky Sami who was always after revenge when she got hurt was the Queen of Perfect just last year. The very thing that got some people turned off to her. Why is this any different than Nicole?
And I don't exactly see Chloe and Nicole being best of buds. I think Chloe is still written as being wary of Nicole, which is good. And I think Nicole realizes that.
I completely agree with these points. I don't mind former enemies becoming friendlier--as you say, Chloe is still wary of Nicole, she's not exactly calling her up to go to the movies and hang out and do each other's nails. As long as the show doesn't forget history and gives me some reason to accept why two people who used to hate each other now get along, I'm fine with it. People forgive all kinds of things in real life.

All your examples are good. I mean, Hope had a lot to forgive with Chelsea, and she did it. Neither one of those two characters is among my favorites, but I think they've had some very nice scenes together. The Christmas scene from 2006 was extremely touching.
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Kyrai


Paxton
Sep 22 2008, 10:35 AM
ladyofthelake
Sep 22 2008, 06:04 AM
And, it doesn't even bother me that Chloe is friends with Nicole. Look at Hope and Lexie. You think they should be friends again after what Lexie did with Zach? Or Hope and Chelsea. Shoot, with Hogan, you wouldn't think Mimi would roll over and help Shawn and Belle escape with Claire, or that Shawn and Belle would ASK Mimi to do that. Sami made peace with oldJohn before the accident. Making peace with an enemy isn't anything new if it helps the direction of the story or really, isn't necessary. Is it necessary that Chloe and Nicole be enemies now? I don't think so.
After all, didn't Sami get Heroine-ized by Sheffer? The snarky Sami who was always after revenge when she got hurt was the Queen of Perfect just last year. The very thing that got some people turned off to her. Why is this any different than Nicole?
And I don't exactly see Chloe and Nicole being best of buds. I think Chloe is still written as being wary of Nicole, which is good. And I think Nicole realizes that.
I completely agree with these points. I don't mind former enemies becoming friendlier--as you say, Chloe is still wary of Nicole, she's not exactly calling her up to go to the movies and hang out and do each other's nails. As long as the show doesn't forget history and gives me some reason to accept why two people who used to hate each other now get along, I'm fine with it. People forgive all kinds of things in real life.

All your examples are good. I mean, Hope had a lot to forgive with Chelsea, and she did it. Neither one of those two characters is among my favorites, but I think they've had some very nice scenes together. The Christmas scene from 2006 was extremely touching.
I have no problem with enemies becoming friends either. In fact I like it. I liked Hope bonding with Chels, John bonding with Sami, Kayla/Patch coming to terms with Jack, Roman and John becoming friends, etc.

But usually there is some kind of acknowledgement of what happened. Hopefully some remorse or regrets. Some coming to terms with it, apologizing, or at least even a grudging bonding growing over time.

Nicole comes across (to me) as a person who does whatever she likes without feeling the least bit guilty of what she's done. She uses men to get what she wants. So now, exactly why am I supposed to root for her? Nothing makes me empathize with her in the least. She's a funny interesting character, but not a sympathetic character at all to me.
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Alligato
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Kyrai
Sep 22 2008, 12:18 PM

Nicole comes across (to me) as a person who does whatever she likes without feeling the least bit guilty of what she's done. She uses men to get what she wants. So now, exactly why am I supposed to root for her? Nothing makes me empathize with her in the least. She's a funny interesting character, but not a sympathetic character at all to me.
^Sami is also someone like you are talking about. She really NEVER expressed remorse for anything she has done...maybe regret because she got caught. For instance, she has no problem shacking her son up with her sister, but some of the most dispicable stuff she has done, she has done to her sister. Not to many apologies thrown to Carrie.
Even John and Sami...John forgave Sami before he died because that seemed like the kind of guy he was. He loved Sami. There was no "sorry I fed you drugs" etc from Sami, just an understanding that she was stupid and he forgave her.

I am more surprised that Roman and Nicole don't acknowledge their romp in the hay right before she left last time. You think that would come up.

And I think that Nicole uses men because she is used to men using her. I can see her issues when she was sexually abused and exploited by her father affecting her behavior as she got older. Unlike Sami and Chelsea who had decent upbringings with no abuse who currently act out for no reason.
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Kyrai


Alligato
Sep 22 2008, 12:50 PM
Kyrai
Sep 22 2008, 12:18 PM

Nicole comes across (to me) as a person who does whatever she likes without feeling the least bit guilty of what she's done. She uses men to get what she wants. So now, exactly why am I supposed to root for her? Nothing makes me empathize with her in the least. She's a funny interesting character, but not a sympathetic character at all to me.
^Sami is also someone like you are talking about. She really NEVER expressed remorse for anything she has done...maybe regret because she got caught. For instance, she has no problem shacking her son up with her sister, but some of the most dispicable stuff she has done, she has done to her sister. Not to many apologies thrown to Carrie.
Even John and Sami...John forgave Sami before he died because that seemed like the kind of guy he was. He loved Sami. There was no "sorry I fed you drugs" etc from Sami, just an understanding that she was stupid and he forgave her.

I am more surprised that Roman and Nicole don't acknowledge their romp in the hay right before she left last time. You think that would come up.

And I think that Nicole uses men because she is used to men using her. I can see her issues when she was sexually abused and exploited by her father affecting her behavior as she got older. Unlike Sami and Chelsea who had decent upbringings with no abuse who currently act out for no reason.
What does Sami have to do with how I feel about Nicole? I have issues with Sami myself, and because I've followed her since childhood, they are very involved. But how I view Sami has nothing to do with how I view Nicole.

I asked why I am supposed to sympathize with Nicole. I've heard Nicole mention an abusive past, but I've never really seen it (perhaps I've missed it). All I see is a girl who doesn't want to work for a living, but expects men to just support her for some unknown reason. I do know women from difficult family situations, and they are ok with working for a living. In fact, they seem to be MORE independent minded to me than people who are brought up in wealthier families. They choose to help themselves by NOT being dependent on men. Nicole comes across as a lazy leech to me.

However, let me state this another way.

IF I were to see Nicole really feel for someone other than herself, I could grow sympathetic to her for a romance. I just don't see that in her. I could take her with EJ as a tactical couple if they didn't try to make it as if they are suddenly deeply enamored of each other. If they both stayed sharp, unemotional, and snarky, then I could see them uniting in pursuit of common goals, more of a practical couple, not a romantic couple. As a romance, they just don't work for me (and I emphasize 'for me' - I like selfless love in my romantic couples).



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luvpumpkns
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Alligato
Sep 22 2008, 12:50 PM
And I think that Nicole uses men because she is used to men using her. I can see her issues when she was sexually abused and exploited by her father affecting her behavior as she got older. Unlike Sami and Chelsea who had decent upbringings with no abuse who currently act out for no reason.
i totally agree. nicole's upbringing explains a lot of her issues with both sex and money. for her, i think, being with a wealthy man who uses her as a trophy is a type of security blanket. it's all she has ever been used to--using her looks and body to make her way through life. since no man apart from eric and maybe ej has ever valued her, it's no wonder that she has trouble finding validity in a normal relationship. i believe the reason that she has used men such as lucas and victor for money is that she feels that if she uses the guy, she gets the upper-hand. it's like her getting revenge on her father, almost. in other words, if she uses the guy before he can use her, she feels like she is in control, and she is ending the cycle of her father's sexual abuse. obviously that isn't the answer, but it makes sense to me that she would feel that way.

in response to the above and nicole's past--when jan spears was raped by paul, nicole's father, nicole divulged that her father forced her into pornography when she was a young teen. i am not sure if he abused her himself, but it's bad enough either way.
Edited by luvpumpkns, Sep 22 2008, 01:32 PM.
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Alligato
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Kyrai - I don't see how your views toward Nicole would relate to your views toward Sami either. I was trying to relate what you were saying to how I feel about Sami sometimes, and about how some characters seem to gloss over any awful past history together in favor of a renewed friendship...maybe just to fit the story.

You had also asked why you should root for Nicole. I am not telling you why, I am just explaining my reasoning for overlooking some of Nicole's antics because of her troubled past. There is alot of talk on other boards about Nicole being a trashy, manipulative whore, but her abuse and exploitation as a teen lead me to a more sympathetic view towards her. You carry that stuff with you for awhile, and it sometimes directly/indirectly continues to influence your life.

However, as a grown woman who was a good businesswoman, I would hope that she could grow out of the "marrying for money" and look towards a means of self support and reliance. Maybe with Victor's money gone, she will find a job with Titan (ironic!). It would be great to see a self supporting young woman on that show...even if she is knocked up with EJ's kid.

great assessment, luvpumpkns.
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Kyrai


luvpumpkns
Sep 22 2008, 01:30 PM
Alligato
Sep 22 2008, 12:50 PM
And I think that Nicole uses men because she is used to men using her. I can see her issues when she was sexually abused and exploited by her father affecting her behavior as she got older. Unlike Sami and Chelsea who had decent upbringings with no abuse who currently act out for no reason.
i totally agree. nicole's upbringing explains a lot of her issues with both sex and money. for her, i think, being with a wealthy man who uses her as a trophy is a type of security blanket. it's all she has ever been used to--using her looks and body to make her way through life. since no man apart from eric and maybe ej has ever valued her, it's no wonder that she has trouble finding validity in a normal relationship. i believe the reason that she has used men such as lucas and victor for money is that she feels that if she uses the guy, she gets the upper-hand. it's like her getting revenge on her father, almost. in other words, if she uses the guy before he can use her, she feels like she is in control, and she is ending the cycle of her father's sexual abuse. obviously that isn't the answer, but it makes sense to me that she would feel that way.

in response to the above and nicole's past--when jan spears was raped by paul, nicole's father, nicole divulged that her father forced her into pornography when she was a young teen. i am not sure if he abused her himself, but it's bad enough either way.
Does she ever show any real feeling for anyone else? Has she ever had a non-selfish feeling, done an unselfish act? Ever. I just don't see her as a likeable caring person.

IF I ever saw her care about someone other than herself, maybe I could, but I don't see it.

I may be biased in that at one time I did think she cared about Eric who really cared about her, and she threw him over for money, and that whole Lucas/Victor story turned my stomach. But I have never seen her attitude change. I still think that for her, it's all about her, no one else.

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Kyrai


Alligato
Sep 22 2008, 01:43 PM
Kyrai - I don't see how your views toward Nicole would relate to your views toward Sami either. I was trying to relate what you were saying to how I feel about Sami sometimes, and about how some characters seem to gloss over any awful past history together in favor of a renewed friendship...maybe just to fit the story.

You had also asked why you should root for Nicole. I am not telling you why, I am just explaining my reasoning for overlooking some of Nicole's antics because of her troubled past. There is alot of talk on other boards about Nicole being a trashy, manipulative whore, but her abuse and exploitation as a teen lead me to a more sympathetic view towards her. You carry that stuff with you for awhile, and it sometimes directly/indirectly continues to influence your life.

However, as a grown woman who was a good businesswoman, I would hope that she could grow out of the "marrying for money" and look towards a means of self support and reliance. Maybe with Victor's money gone, she will find a job with Titan (ironic!). It would be great to see a self supporting young woman on that show...even if she is knocked up with EJ's kid.

great assessment, luvpumpkns.
I understand and agree she CAN be a better person. My point is, I've never seen her even struggling to want to be a better person at all. She's totally fine with being selfish and using people to get what she wants.

IF/when she meets someone who makes her realize there is more to life than using people, and she would like to be a better person, then maybe I'd like her and root for her romantically. Right now, I don't.


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luvpumpkns
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Kyrai
Sep 22 2008, 01:51 PM
I understand and agree she CAN be a better person. My point is, I've never seen her even struggling to want to be a better person at all. She's totally fine with being selfish and using people to get what she wants.

IF/when she meets someone who makes her realize there is more to life than using people, and she would like to be a better person, then maybe I'd like her and root for her romantically. Right now, I don't.


i think that what you have said is true to some extent. i don't think any fan of nicole is going to try to pretend that she's a goody-two-shoes heroine. that being said, she has cared for people geuninely. there was a time when she did care for victor. i believe she also loved brady, and didn't use him. does that excuse what she did to chloe? obviously not, and i suppose some will say that what she tried to do to chloe proves she never really cared about brady. i disagree. before nicole hatched the face-scarring bacteria scheme, she found chloe alive and faking her death. i think nicole was geuninely horrified that chloe would break brady's heart like that over a scar, and i think she felt that brady didn't deserve a woman that would do that to him. that then led her to try to keep the two apart, and of course she did it partly out of selfishness, too. but that doesn't mean she used brady or didn't care for him. i fully believe she did.
Edited by luvpumpkns, Sep 22 2008, 02:58 PM.
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mesagirl
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I can understand why some people don't like Nicole based on what she's done in the past.

So far, from what I've seen, Nicole came back to Salem a different person than when she left. Some say she's after money, yet she settled for far less from Victor than what EJ could have gotten for her. We've also heard her saying to other characters how she's finally realized that money does not buy happiness and now what she really wants is to be with a man that loves her.

I really hope the writers continue to play Nicole as more sympathetic, yes, because I really like her character. She really seems to be trying to make amends to the people she's done harm to. Trying to be friendly with Chloe, striking up a friendship with Philip, etc.

I guess the issue is why can viewers sweep some characters actions under the rug and practically pretend as if it never happened (i.e. EJ for one, and Sami), and yet hold other characters to some other level where they won't forgive them (i.e. Nicole). EJ certainly has done things just as horrible as Nicole, some things were worse than Nicole, yet his shit don't stink to many viewers. Folks are willing to overlook his crimes because they want him with Sami at any cost.

Fair is fair I say. If one can forgive EJ, you'd think one would be able to forgive Nicole as well. Both of these characters have shown so far that they are changing and growing up to some degree.
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