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Thom Racina Interview; " I would go back as head writer"
Topic Started: Nov 25 2008, 10:47 PM (4,807 Views)
madelinehawaii


Jiggs
Dec 3 2008, 07:49 PM
madelinehawaii
Dec 3 2008, 12:35 AM
Jiggs
Dec 2 2008, 11:43 PM
madelinehawaii
Dec 2 2008, 10:36 PM
Jiggs
Dec 2 2008, 08:21 PM
madelinehawaii
Dec 2 2008, 07:41 PM
coming from someone who pans a writer based on a story that wasn't given the opportunity to play out, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by such a response, though I'd love to hear how comparing the history that is changed is in anyway subjective...unless of course you're basing it on whether you care about that history in which case it makes your opinion subjective, not the writer's talent or lack thereof. You do understand that something that can be proven, as in a writer rewrote previous history is not an opinion and comparing two writers based on that fact is therefore not subjective?

Which story? The John & Tony are brother's story? They didn't play that out? News to me.

Sorry, the rest of your post doesn't make sense to me. Not sure what the heck you're trying to say.
subjective, as in the work of a writer being a matter of taste.

I asked how one writer can be panned while another is not when both rewrite history...specifically when rewriting history is used as the reason for panning a writer's work and your answer was that it was subjective.

whether you liked the story in general is subjective, whether you liked the characters used and how they were used is subjective, whether you thought the pacing was fast enough, or too fast is subjective...whether you believe most people liked it is pretty subjective as well....but if two different writers both do the same thing...rewrite history, that itself is not subjective...that is a fact that can be verified by going back and watching the story again. If rewriting history in general is a reason to pan a writer as bad, it either works for all the writers who do that, or using that as a valid reason is meaningless.

I disagree. In MY OPINION, there is bad rewriting of history and good rewriting of history... i.e. making Hope's baby be Bo's instead of John's was GOOD rewriting of history, and rewriting history to say that Marlena was jealous of Isabella and treated Brady badly as a child is BAD rewritten history. And that's my opinion so I do think it's quite subjective.
If you'd based this on how well something was rewritten, I'd say you have a leg to stand on...maybe, but to suggest that rewriting history to make Bo the father of a baby when he'd never had sex with Hope within the nine months before she got pregnant (until they slipped it in afterward) is good and changing Tony into Andre in Aremid was bad (or the other examples you used) is just too ridiculous to take seriously...other than the fact it's completely based on how it affected your favorite characters on the show. That's all well and good, but it doesn't make critiquing a writer based how if he/she rewrites previous stories subjective, other than for you personally and even then it's not based strictly on the merits of the story...it's based on how your favorite character is treated in that story. Those are two completely different things, and it does not make the writing poor or good, it makes it your preference.

I have plenty of preferences when it comes to characters and what happens to them, but I don't use them as the basis for determining the quality of the writing. For instance, I liked many of the things that Hogan wrote in the last half of 07 but I didn't think his stories were all that great (at least not as they played out on screen), and I've never been a fan of Reilly, or practically anything he wrote but don't believe that made his stories crap either.
Oh for pete's sake. I said it was MY OPINION. You don't have to think it's good rewritten history just because I do. There is nothing objective about judging whether a writer is good or not :eyeroll: Even your comments about Reilly and Hogan are subjective. And I can't even remember what my original point was in this because you have taken one thing I said and tried to make it into something I wasn't even talking about. :walkman:
sorry you missed my point...what constitutes good writing is made up of particular elements that can be judged and is not merely a matter of opinion; yours, mine or anyone else and if you have a problem with someone's reaction to your opinions, or the fact they might do so in a way you weren't expecting, all you have to do is stop responding. I was finding this conversation interesting but if you're not, why do you continue answering my posts?
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daysfan
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Mason
Dec 3 2008, 07:43 PM
Hope's kidnapping was an awesome story, even though, no, it did not involve J&M. A great storyline is possible without them, though.
Hope's kidnapping is easily one of the best stories of this century that actually made it all the way without it being re-written or turning for the worse. I LOVED how B&C tapped into history with that.
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madelinehawaii


Kyrai
Dec 3 2008, 09:27 PM
madelinehawaii
Dec 3 2008, 12:35 AM
If you'd based this on how well something was rewritten, I'd say you have a leg to stand on...maybe, but to suggest that rewriting history to make Bo the father of a baby when he'd never had sex with Hope within the nine months before she got pregnant (until they slipped it in afterward) is good and changing Tony into Andre in Aremid was bad (or the other examples you used) is just too ridiculous to take seriously...other than the fact it's completely based on how it affected your favorite characters on the show. That's all well and good, but it doesn't make critiquing a writer based how if he/she rewrites previous stories subjective, other than for you personally and even then it's not based strictly on the merits of the story...it's based on how your favorite character is treated in that story. Those are two completely different things, and it does not make the writing poor or good, it makes it your preference.

I have plenty of preferences when it comes to characters and what happens to them, but I don't use them as the basis for determining the quality of the writing. For instance, I liked many of the things that Hogan wrote in the last half of 07 but I didn't think his stories were all that great (at least not as they played out on screen), and I've never been a fan of Reilly, or practically anything he wrote but don't believe that made his stories crap either.
Such a good point. I've noticed lately how much my subjectiveness has played a huge part in the stories. I rewatched 2000 awhile back, and I realized that I always thought I hated those stories, but I enjoyed them tremendously this time. It was like viewing them through completely different eyes. I used to hate merc John, but this time I loved him. I hated Hope and John because I remembered it ruining their honeymoon. This time I loved them and felt so sorry for them, and loved the friendship between Bo, Hope, John, and Marlena. I never noticed how much love they showed between these four or how really wonderful they were together. I still hated Marlena, John, and Brady fighting, but I loved the passion of the characters and how human they were. I liked to think of Marlena as a perfect mom, but the more I suspended that belief, the more I just enjoyed the story and looked for the resolution. I watched enjoying despite or because of how angry they made me, and really appreciating the bones that were thrown. The writers attacked some of my core beliefs in John and Marlena, but they did it consistently and given that we didn't see Brady and Belle during their SORA-ized time, I could buy it, at least much of it. And surprisingly, when all was said and done, I didn't hate John and Marlena for being human. I loved them more for their love getting them through it.

Watching these dvds,nicely compacted, I noticed so many nice details in the writing that I really enjoyed and missed the first time. I did dislike them making JT John's son after going through all they did to make the point that it could only be John's or Stefano's, not to mention the DNA testing. It didn't kill the story for me, but it takes away from the story, and there was no storybased reason to change it. It was done to appease the fans.

When I look back at this year's storylines, what I've disliked has been that there just wasn't any direction as opposed to a direction that I just didn't like. I'd classify it as bad writing whereas I'd classify 2000-2001 as good writing but very subjective based on people's perceptions.

In a nutshell, I agree with you. Thanks!
yw :D

That is the thing about the writers now that I have such a problem with, besides the lack of direction, is their inability or unwillingness to acknowledge that human beings are affected, many times in ways that they'd never believe possible by the events happening around them or to them, and that good people can do lousy things to each other and that doesn't have to ruin a character.
Edited by madelinehawaii, Dec 3 2008, 10:41 PM.
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Mikegoldy
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To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
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Mikegoldy
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PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
There is so much story there and it would affect almost the entire cast of characters. You would have Bo, Hope, Steve, and Kayla frontburner. People who don't like Steve and Kayla this time around would be able to "get" what the initial Steve and Kayla conflict was. While all this is going on, this new guy (the son of Steve and Hope) enters Chelsea's life, but also sleeps with bad girl Melanie. Continue Philip and Stephanie, and the EJ, Nicole, Sami, Rafe Quad, and I think you have a pretty good show lol
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 03:03 AM
PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
There is so much story there and it would affect almost the entire cast of characters. You would have Bo, Hope, Steve, and Kayla frontburner. People who don't like Steve and Kayla this time around would be able to "get" what the initial Steve and Kayla conflict was. While all this is going on, this new guy (the son of Steve and Hope) enters Chelsea's life, but also sleeps with bad girl Melanie. Continue Philip and Stephanie, and the EJ, Nicole, Sami, Rafe Quad, and I think you have a pretty good show lol
Exactly.

I think Steve and Kayla should've had a story like that when they came back. Didn't have to be Hope (but it could be for dramatic purposes) but a past lover or a child he had while being gone. That could've set up major conflict and they could find their way back to each other, which would allow current fans to fall in love with them and like them for themselves just like they did Bo and Hope and John and Marlena in the 90's. That is why so many current fans gravitate toward them because JER got fans on board with them in the 90's. Days never did that with Steve and Kayla this time around and it hurt.
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Beth
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daysfan
Dec 2 2008, 01:57 PM
Beth
Dec 2 2008, 11:05 AM
I would love to see a return to the writing style of the 80's. It's exactly what's missing.
See, thats the thing. This is NOT the 80's. I loved the 80's, but unfortunately, they are over. That writing wouldn't work today, for numerous reasons:

1. Alot of fans of Days, heck alot of fans of Days here, are from the 90's. The JER era. That is the writing that alot of people want now.
2. The 80's style...wouldn't bode well with alot of people IMO. Because the 80's were all about younger characters too for most soaps, and it was just massive camp and supercouples. On OLTL, in the Summer, Ron tried to bring back that huge camp like Mendorra, 1968(like the Eterna story in the 80's), and it was bashed all over. That showed me more than ever that for any soap, the 80's writing wouldn't be well recieved.
3. Take people like Tina Lord on OLTL for example: She was enjoyed by some, but alot felt that Andrea over-acted or acted way too Rebecca-etc, and that Andrea could never come out of the 80's acting style, and Tina wasn't well recieved this time around by alot.
4. No soap, especially Days, has the budget to pull off that 80's writing. The 80's writing included alot of characters, alot of sets, etc etc. Days obviously cannot have that now.
SOD cover is all about how The Young and The Restless went back to those 80's style stories and the success they are having. :tink:
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daysfan
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Beth
Dec 4 2008, 11:39 AM
daysfan
Dec 2 2008, 01:57 PM
Beth
Dec 2 2008, 11:05 AM
I would love to see a return to the writing style of the 80's. It's exactly what's missing.
See, thats the thing. This is NOT the 80's. I loved the 80's, but unfortunately, they are over. That writing wouldn't work today, for numerous reasons:

1. Alot of fans of Days, heck alot of fans of Days here, are from the 90's. The JER era. That is the writing that alot of people want now.
2. The 80's style...wouldn't bode well with alot of people IMO. Because the 80's were all about younger characters too for most soaps, and it was just massive camp and supercouples. On OLTL, in the Summer, Ron tried to bring back that huge camp like Mendorra, 1968(like the Eterna story in the 80's), and it was bashed all over. That showed me more than ever that for any soap, the 80's writing wouldn't be well recieved.
3. Take people like Tina Lord on OLTL for example: She was enjoyed by some, but alot felt that Andrea over-acted or acted way too Rebecca-etc, and that Andrea could never come out of the 80's acting style, and Tina wasn't well recieved this time around by alot.
4. No soap, especially Days, has the budget to pull off that 80's writing. The 80's writing included alot of characters, alot of sets, etc etc. Days obviously cannot have that now.
SOD cover is all about how The Young and The Restless went back to those 80's style stories and the success they are having. :tink:
Thats because Y&R never went through a million identity changes like Days did. Days has changed its identity just about every decade. And Y&R never threw out their vets, as far as I know, back then like Days did.
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Kyrai


PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
I have mixed feelings on this. I want conflict for my favorite couples, but I don't want something trivial breaking them up.

Because I'm more J&M based, I'll use J&M for my examples, but I think the same would be true of any couple one is invested in, Bope, Payla, Tanna, etc.

On the one hand, I do like my John and Marlena rock solid in love and perfect. For me, they represent love, so I'm heavily invested in them and how they are portrayed. I don't want one of them to ever let the other down.

On the other hand because they are so in love, I think they should be able to conquer anything, and I want a lot thrown at them. But as a writer, how do you throw stuff at them and have it have impact if they have to be perfect or their fans don't like it?

I think there were cases where the writers went to extremes to break up the super couples in such a way that it would be hard to say 'love failed them, but incredible circumstances happened'. But some fans (NOT saying all) just would not even allow for the possibility that any circumstance could cause one to be unfaithful to the other.

Examples:
The writers wrote the story where Hope and John are not in their right minds and cheat on Bo and Marlena. There were fans who absolutely hated Hope or John because 'their real characters would never cheat, not even under mind control'.

John thought Marlena was dead, Kate thought Roman was dead, they helped each other heal. Kate was wonderful helping John get over his addiction (not my fav storyline, but I loved her helping him). Not knowing their spouses were alive, they found comfort in each other. The relationship was interesting and a change of pace, but from what I understand there were some fans who were very upset with that story even though John felt Marlena was dead. I liked Roman and Kate as friends of John and Marlena, but it seems like that relationship was totally killed because of fan reaction. (note: I was not online when this happened, so I'm going by things a friend told me).

I don't want to get involved in was any of this right or wrong. My question is, 'Is there really any scenario where it's acceptable to upset an established 'couple'?

I'd honestly have thought mind control (as outlandish as that sounds) and death would be somewhat acceptable. If they aren't, what is?

I think there are great stories for our couples, but the writers have to be willing to make them human (without killing the core character) and deal with the fan fallout. It's our jobs as fans to get upset, but the writers shouldn't over-react to fan pressure. It's a balance. I want to be upset and tune in every day anxious to root for my couple to overcome, even if it's painful. I do expect it to be enjoyable vs. torture or enjoyable and torturous.

btw - I also think there are other types of stories, like mysteries, adventures, helping others overcome obstacles, being the backdrop for others falling in love, that are interesting without having to break the couple apart. There are many kinds of stories.




Edited by Kyrai, Dec 4 2008, 12:54 PM.
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Beth
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I think fans have to see some glint of hope that their couple will reunite. Those longing glances, near kisses, and heart tugging moments.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Kyrai
Dec 4 2008, 12:47 PM
PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
I have mixed feelings on this. I want conflict for my favorite couples, but I don't want something trivial breaking them up.

Because I'm more J&M based, I'll use J&M for my examples, but I think the same would be true of any couple one is invested in, Bope, Payla, Tanna, etc.

On the one hand, I do like my John and Marlena rock solid in love and perfect. For me, they represent love, so I'm heavily invested in them and how they are portrayed. I don't want one of them to ever let the other down.

On the other hand because they are so in love, I think they should be able to conquer anything, and I want a lot thrown at them. But as a writer, how do you throw stuff at them and have it have impact if they have to be perfect or their fans don't like it?

I think there were cases where the writers went to extremes to break up the super couples in such a way that it would be hard to say 'love failed them, but incredible circumstances happened'. But some fans (NOT saying all) just would not even allow for the possibility that any circumstance could cause one to be unfaithful to the other.

Examples:
The writers wrote the story where Hope and John are not in their right minds and cheat on Bo and Marlena. There were fans who absolutely hated Hope or John because 'their real characters would never cheat, not even under mind control'.

John thought Marlena was dead, Kate thought Roman was dead, they helped each other heal. Kate was wonderful helping John get over his addiction (not my fav storyline, but I loved her helping him). Not knowing their spouses were alive, they found comfort in each other. The relationship was interesting and a change of pace, but from what I understand there were some fans who were very upset with that story even though John felt Marlena was dead. I liked Roman and Kate as friends of John and Marlena, but it seems like that relationship was totally killed because of fan reaction. (note: I was not online when this happened, so I'm going by things a friend told me).

I don't want to get involved in was any of this right or wrong. My question is, 'Is there really any scenario where it's acceptable to upset an established 'couple'?

I'd honestly have thought mind control (as outlandish as that sounds) and death would be somewhat acceptable. If they aren't, what is?

I think there are great stories for our couples, but the writers have to be willing to make them human (without killing the core character) and deal with the fan fallout. It's our jobs as fans to get upset, but the writers shouldn't over-react to fan pressure. It's a balance. I want to be upset and tune in every day anxious to root for my couple to overcome, even if it's painful. I do expect it to be enjoyable vs. torture or enjoyable and torturous.

btw - I also think there are other types of stories, like mysteries, adventures, helping others overcome obstacles, being the backdrop for others falling in love, that are interesting without having to break the couple apart. There are many kinds of stories.




Kyrai, that is a great post.

You seem to understand the situation the writer's are in. I don't necessarily blame the writers. I blame Corday because he is the one who panics. Ten years ago, a writer would be allowed to see a story through no matter what. Fan backlash would be dealt with later. Any damage done would be done at the completion of the story. Stories would be shortened or stopped at times but they weren't closed up so fast and swept under the rug so fast that you wondered if what you had been watching was some sort of fantasy. The writer was given freedom to complete the story or end it in such a way that it did something for the canvas. Perhaps a bad story could end in a way that starts a better story. A good example of this is the Colin Murphy story. The character was a dud and never got developed so they axe him but they make him evil and have him killed, sparking a murder mystery. Before he dies, he blackmails Nicole and Jennifer has sex with him to save Jack's life. This created story for J&J and Nicole/Victor. Hope's breakdown was also tied in with it. So, they took a bad character and story and made it into something watchable by tying it to stories that work. That only happened because the writers were given the freedom they needed and could see it through. Too bad B&C were demoted shortly after and couldn't complete their work they way they wanted to.

To me, this is two fold. Corday needs to do what he did in the 90's and stay out of it. Only Tomlin should be allowed to work with the writers. I mean, he was a writer afterall. Corday never interfered in the 80's and 90's, at least not to the extent he does now, and look how the show was. He had a strong co-EP who kept him out of it and handled things. When he gets involved, he puts his own shit into the mix and, since he is afraid and wants to please as many fan groups as he can, he panics when he reads feedback or reads the net and sees people pissed. Therefore, because he is interfering, he can force stories to end before they are seen all the way through. He can force stories to change gears and the cause is a lack of direction and consistency. This has been the way since JER left and, to a lesser extent, since Langan left. I thought Ed Scott could reel him in but I was wrong. Corday had been allowed to wreak havoc for too long.

I never personally understood how you can hold it against a character if they are mind control. First off, I hated the Gina story because of the brain chip shit. It was just too much Sci-Fi at the time. I didn't like the Gina story until real Gina showed up. Way too confusing. Anyway, I would've preferred hypnosis or straight up brainwashing rather then the chip. Regardless, John and Hope were not themselves so how can it be held against them? The conflict was JT anyway because they thought he was John's. That was where the story was. It was about them dealing with John and Hope sharing a child together and that was interesting to me until they changed it. To their credit, they found a nice out to make Bo the father but still. I felt they lost a ton of story. I was actually hoping Hope's child was Stefano. Tons of potential there. This is the same thing as what is going on with John. I see so many saying John would never do this to Marlena or Marlena would never do this to John. Well, this isn't John. This is a different John. It's not the same and it can't be held against either of them given what is going on.

I remember a time when fans were more willing to be patient and to wait. They didn't make demands or threaten boycotts. Now I know soaps have burned fans too many times but let's think of all the stories some fans have gotten tossed out because they wanted what they wanted and wanted it when they wanted it. Not all fans but some fans come off as selfish brats. They want their agenda suited and screw everyone else. They want their couple on all the time but could care less about the show as a whole or the other characters. The only way to save soaps and to save Days is for fans to band together and to be a united front and start giving feedback about the whole as a whole. It's not easy to shift through all the feedback from the many fan groups and fans out there, all of which want different things and some of which are so irrational you wonder why they are allowed to walk the streets. Send feedback that is helpful. That defines a clear vision of what you want from the show. Hell, send the show clips of past types of things that you want. Act like you want to help and not like you only want your agenda served because, frankly, I'm sure some fans they didn't even pay attention to anymore because they are so sick of them acting like they are more important then the rest of the audience.

Back in the 80's and 90's, fans sat back and gave things a chance. They voiced their opinion but the situation was not at all what it is now. Now, the writers sit down and not only have to look at what works for the characters but what will be acceptable for the fanbase. They can't take risks. They can't write conflicts because many fans hate to see their couple argue. I see all the time fans say they want angst but then they get it and complain. Not every couple stays together in real life so why do they have to here? Why can't characters be allowed out of the supercouple bubble to grow a bit more? They can always go back but Days has been sacrificing character for couples for too long now and that is one reason why it's hard to write for the vets. They can't even write a professional story about Marlena's career because that would give her more time on her own and many want her with John all the time. It's just beyond sickening. It's hard to relate to Days when they follow the supercouple model because it doesn't reflect enough on real life. Yes, you need some fantasy and escapism but you need to be able to connect and it's hard to connect with the idea that every single couple on the show only has one person they can be with. Why not break one of them up and see what happens? Hell, that is how you got John and Marlena. You broke up a popular couple in Roman and Marlena because John and Marlena were bigger at the time. You never know what you may find if you just try.

The show can't write the same stuff over and over and that is what so many want. How many times can J&M and B&H on on romantic adventures and be in danger? I've seen that a hundred times. How many times can one of them be kidnapped or presumed dead? It's old. It's tired and the issue is many fans out there won't let the writers go outside the box and write stories for the CHARACTERS and not the COUPLES. I don't think they ever will either. Now, I'm not absolving the writers. They have their own issues but fans play a part in this too and NOT all fans but SOME. Let the writers tell stories. This is a daytime drama. They need to be able to take risks and fans need to think back to the time when they allowed themselves to go on the journey of a story. Things need to be given a chance because too often people read spoilers and don't even give something a chance (spoilers are another problem but I digress). You can't get a read on things through spoilers or early on. Give it a chance first and let the writers write.

I really hope for the sake of the show and daytime that the fans out there I'm talking about come to the conclusion that they are not helping and actually do what I'm suggesting. That isn't to say it will definitely help and I could be wrong about some things but it's the way I view the situation.
Edited by PhoenixRising05, Dec 4 2008, 02:01 PM.
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Sindacco
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Colin did not rape Jennifer.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Sindacco
Dec 4 2008, 01:58 PM
Colin did not rape Jennifer.
Well, he forced her hand. She slept with him to save Jack's life so IMO it's pretty damn close as far as the mental impact.

I should've made that more clear. I will go back and edit the post.
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Kyrai


PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 01:53 PM
I really hope for the sake of the show and daytime that the fans out there I'm talking about come to the conclusion that they are not helping and actually do what I'm suggesting. That isn't to say it will definitely help and I could be wrong about some things but it's the way I view the situation.
Thanks Phoenix. I trimmed most of the message because this was getting long, but what you say here is what I've been thinking. Can soaps be saved, what is wrong, etc. I'm incredibly sad that Days is over for me, but keeping thinking about the situation.

Again using the Gina story, it not only set up the JT conflict, it set up conflict for every permutation of those couples because they were such friends, and this had impact to all of those friendships. I loved Bo and John, so it killed me both when they were good friends and when they started going after each other, same effect with Marlena and Hope, Marlena and Bo, etc. The baby swap added to it, with Hope's guilt over JT being sick due to what she thought was her drinking, the health issues due to the baby swap that kept John involved and worried, Lexie, Abe, Stefano brought into the mix, not to mention the ripple effect they had with Marlena being jealous of JT paralleling her supposed jealousy of Brady (I hated it, but the story was put together to make that connection). Had the baby remained John's or been Stefano's, the possibilities were endless.

Even taking the Ava situation this year. Had they had Marlena separate from John realistically, with him not being John because of Stefano, I could have seen Marlena with a new love interest. Watched both of them in new relationships. My feeling is that in time, they'd get back together. I just have that much faith in their chemistry. I love the angst of watching them get back together. The little glimmers of hope, the looks. I could see John being totally evil with Ava, but his core starting to work on him. Marlena avoiding him, but that connection eventually coming back. I could see dire circumstances (STEFANO) throwing them together, maybe bitterly at first but it changing to those old feelings coming back. It could take years, but I'd hope. If during this time, somehow I liked John and Marlena better with others, then so be it. I don't think that could happen, but I can't be jealous of everyone who comes near them out of fear that their relationship won't make it. If that's the case, it doesn't deserve to last and hopefully, if it's a story driven change, I may get on board as well. It's a risk, but you gotta have faith.

I was despondent when Marlena and John didn't get together in '91. I liked Isabella and Roman, but I always watched for J&M to get together because even in scenes as just friends, they were 'meant to be'. Took forever, but those were the best years of hoping!

The big problem I see atm, is that I really don't have faith in the writers to tell stories that get you invested. I'm not sure if it's Corday's influence or ineptitude or a combination of both. The J&M story could have worked on many levels. It just never seemed to have any direction. I don't think I'll be on for the Nicole/Ej/Sami/Rafe stuff, but they don't seem to have any real direction, more like just scenes that aren't going to lead to a payoff. I get the Kristen connection. I love that kind of story. I can suspend belief with the best of them. But Kristen's story was dependent on John and Marlena's love. I just don't feel that with Ej/Sami or Ej/Nicole. Hopefully, they have another type of payoff in mind. It seems like drama for the sake of the moments, but directionless. I'm certainly willing to wait it out, or would be if J&M were staying, but it doesn't even have me interested in a 'I hate this' or 'I love this' kinda way. I may enjoy the moments, but the overall story has just become tired. I just don't care. I think you have to care one way or another. They have to get you invested. The writers need to rebuild trust, and we need to have faith. I honestly just do not have faith in Higley, and I just don't think there's time for things to change. I wish it would.

Sorry for the book. I'll stop now. I just wish things could get better. It feels so hopeless.
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daysfan
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PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 01:53 PM
Kyrai
Dec 4 2008, 12:47 PM
PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
I have mixed feelings on this. I want conflict for my favorite couples, but I don't want something trivial breaking them up.

Because I'm more J&M based, I'll use J&M for my examples, but I think the same would be true of any couple one is invested in, Bope, Payla, Tanna, etc.

On the one hand, I do like my John and Marlena rock solid in love and perfect. For me, they represent love, so I'm heavily invested in them and how they are portrayed. I don't want one of them to ever let the other down.

On the other hand because they are so in love, I think they should be able to conquer anything, and I want a lot thrown at them. But as a writer, how do you throw stuff at them and have it have impact if they have to be perfect or their fans don't like it?

I think there were cases where the writers went to extremes to break up the super couples in such a way that it would be hard to say 'love failed them, but incredible circumstances happened'. But some fans (NOT saying all) just would not even allow for the possibility that any circumstance could cause one to be unfaithful to the other.

Examples:
The writers wrote the story where Hope and John are not in their right minds and cheat on Bo and Marlena. There were fans who absolutely hated Hope or John because 'their real characters would never cheat, not even under mind control'.

John thought Marlena was dead, Kate thought Roman was dead, they helped each other heal. Kate was wonderful helping John get over his addiction (not my fav storyline, but I loved her helping him). Not knowing their spouses were alive, they found comfort in each other. The relationship was interesting and a change of pace, but from what I understand there were some fans who were very upset with that story even though John felt Marlena was dead. I liked Roman and Kate as friends of John and Marlena, but it seems like that relationship was totally killed because of fan reaction. (note: I was not online when this happened, so I'm going by things a friend told me).

I don't want to get involved in was any of this right or wrong. My question is, 'Is there really any scenario where it's acceptable to upset an established 'couple'?

I'd honestly have thought mind control (as outlandish as that sounds) and death would be somewhat acceptable. If they aren't, what is?

I think there are great stories for our couples, but the writers have to be willing to make them human (without killing the core character) and deal with the fan fallout. It's our jobs as fans to get upset, but the writers shouldn't over-react to fan pressure. It's a balance. I want to be upset and tune in every day anxious to root for my couple to overcome, even if it's painful. I do expect it to be enjoyable vs. torture or enjoyable and torturous.

btw - I also think there are other types of stories, like mysteries, adventures, helping others overcome obstacles, being the backdrop for others falling in love, that are interesting without having to break the couple apart. There are many kinds of stories.




Kyrai, that is a great post.

You seem to understand the situation the writer's are in. I don't necessarily blame the writers. I blame Corday because he is the one who panics. Ten years ago, a writer would be allowed to see a story through no matter what. Fan backlash would be dealt with later. Any damage done would be done at the completion of the story. Stories would be shortened or stopped at times but they weren't closed up so fast and swept under the rug so fast that you wondered if what you had been watching was some sort of fantasy. The writer was given freedom to complete the story or end it in such a way that it did something for the canvas. Perhaps a bad story could end in a way that starts a better story. A good example of this is the Colin Murphy story. The character was a dud and never got developed so they axe him but they make him evil and have him killed, sparking a murder mystery. Before he dies, he blackmails Nicole and Jennifer has sex with him to save Jack's life. This created story for J&J and Nicole/Victor. Hope's breakdown was also tied in with it. So, they took a bad character and story and made it into something watchable by tying it to stories that work. That only happened because the writers were given the freedom they needed and could see it through. Too bad B&C were demoted shortly after and couldn't complete their work they way they wanted to.

To me, this is two fold. Corday needs to do what he did in the 90's and stay out of it. Only Tomlin should be allowed to work with the writers. I mean, he was a writer afterall. Corday never interfered in the 80's and 90's, at least not to the extent he does now, and look how the show was. He had a strong co-EP who kept him out of it and handled things. When he gets involved, he puts his own shit into the mix and, since he is afraid and wants to please as many fan groups as he can, he panics when he reads feedback or reads the net and sees people pissed. Therefore, because he is interfering, he can force stories to end before they are seen all the way through. He can force stories to change gears and the cause is a lack of direction and consistency. This has been the way since JER left and, to a lesser extent, since Langan left. I thought Ed Scott could reel him in but I was wrong. Corday had been allowed to wreak havoc for too long.

I never personally understood how you can hold it against a character if they are mind control. First off, I hated the Gina story because of the brain chip shit. It was just too much Sci-Fi at the time. I didn't like the Gina story until real Gina showed up. Way too confusing. Anyway, I would've preferred hypnosis or straight up brainwashing rather then the chip. Regardless, John and Hope were not themselves so how can it be held against them? The conflict was JT anyway because they thought he was John's. That was where the story was. It was about them dealing with John and Hope sharing a child together and that was interesting to me until they changed it. To their credit, they found a nice out to make Bo the father but still. I felt they lost a ton of story. I was actually hoping Hope's child was Stefano. Tons of potential there. This is the same thing as what is going on with John. I see so many saying John would never do this to Marlena or Marlena would never do this to John. Well, this isn't John. This is a different John. It's not the same and it can't be held against either of them given what is going on.

I remember a time when fans were more willing to be patient and to wait. They didn't make demands or threaten boycotts. Now I know soaps have burned fans too many times but let's think of all the stories some fans have gotten tossed out because they wanted what they wanted and wanted it when they wanted it. Not all fans but some fans come off as selfish brats. They want their agenda suited and screw everyone else. They want their couple on all the time but could care less about the show as a whole or the other characters. The only way to save soaps and to save Days is for fans to band together and to be a united front and start giving feedback about the whole as a whole. It's not easy to shift through all the feedback from the many fan groups and fans out there, all of which want different things and some of which are so irrational you wonder why they are allowed to walk the streets. Send feedback that is helpful. That defines a clear vision of what you want from the show. Hell, send the show clips of past types of things that you want. Act like you want to help and not like you only want your agenda served because, frankly, I'm sure some fans they didn't even pay attention to anymore because they are so sick of them acting like they are more important then the rest of the audience.

Back in the 80's and 90's, fans sat back and gave things a chance. They voiced their opinion but the situation was not at all what it is now. Now, the writers sit down and not only have to look at what works for the characters but what will be acceptable for the fanbase. They can't take risks. They can't write conflicts because many fans hate to see their couple argue. I see all the time fans say they want angst but then they get it and complain. Not every couple stays together in real life so why do they have to here? Why can't characters be allowed out of the supercouple bubble to grow a bit more? They can always go back but Days has been sacrificing character for couples for too long now and that is one reason why it's hard to write for the vets. They can't even write a professional story about Marlena's career because that would give her more time on her own and many want her with John all the time. It's just beyond sickening. It's hard to relate to Days when they follow the supercouple model because it doesn't reflect enough on real life. Yes, you need some fantasy and escapism but you need to be able to connect and it's hard to connect with the idea that every single couple on the show only has one person they can be with. Why not break one of them up and see what happens? Hell, that is how you got John and Marlena. You broke up a popular couple in Roman and Marlena because John and Marlena were bigger at the time. You never know what you may find if you just try.

The show can't write the same stuff over and over and that is what so many want. How many times can J&M and B&H on on romantic adventures and be in danger? I've seen that a hundred times. How many times can one of them be kidnapped or presumed dead? It's old. It's tired and the issue is many fans out there won't let the writers go outside the box and write stories for the CHARACTERS and not the COUPLES. I don't think they ever will either. Now, I'm not absolving the writers. They have their own issues but fans play a part in this too and NOT all fans but SOME. Let the writers tell stories. This is a daytime drama. They need to be able to take risks and fans need to think back to the time when they allowed themselves to go on the journey of a story. Things need to be given a chance because too often people read spoilers and don't even give something a chance (spoilers are another problem but I digress). You can't get a read on things through spoilers or early on. Give it a chance first and let the writers write.

I really hope for the sake of the show and daytime that the fans out there I'm talking about come to the conclusion that they are not helping and actually do what I'm suggesting. That isn't to say it will definitely help and I could be wrong about some things but it's the way I view the situation.
FANTASTIC POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I think also, although I am thankful for the internet, it plays a role in why Corday is so panicky. Fans can voice their opinions ALL over now.

And honestly Tomlin is not the best guy around, but Corday needs to just back out of everything. Not resign just take a minor role in the show...because truthfully as I've said, Corday is at fault for most of this, and I feel the show could be better if Tomlin could have free reign. He should have let Ed have free reign(can't say the same about Wyman because he just went along with Corday), and Ed wouldn't have been prompted to do what he did if Corday had let him have complete control. In fact if he let Ed had all the control I get the feeling that Higley wouldn't be here and maybe Hogan still would be. Although I still am not Ed's biggest fan because of the scandal, Corday takes alot of blame.

And say what you will about Tomlin, he knows how to run a show. He ran Sunset Beach and OLTL just fine. As you said, Corday just needs to let his Co-EPs handle things.
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Beth
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The problem is simple; we all get spoilers, we all have been jerked around too much, and we have all seen too many stories dropped. Our trust is shaken; TPTB at DOOL have not been putting the best interests of the show first. It really doesn't matter what the story is; if it's done well people will watch. Why can't they use some resources from other shows to help DOOL. They could even get writing help from one of the primetime show writers. Lots of things could be done but no one is doing anything right now. I think Corday needs to do a nice long interview and explain what's happening and what the shows future. If anyone needs to be let go then start with the useless: Melanie, Maggie, Daniel, and Kate.
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CatherineEarnshaw


Any kind of disagreement seems rather anathema on this board, but fans hated John and Hope yet Days continued this story for four years. How long should untalented writers be allowed to keep a story going when fans hated it?

Since we are all about quoting old writers, how about Doug Marland who said know what your audience wants to see? Or Sheri who ended the Chris/Marlena relationship because they weren't connecting and John and marlena were?

The ones who say just go along for the ride at various shows don't realize that sometimes that ride simply isn't enjoyable because fans no longer recognize the characters.

But in the end, it is the fans fault. Thanks Ken.
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CatherineEarnshaw


Mason
Dec 3 2008, 07:43 PM
Hope's kidnapping was an awesome story, even though, no, it did not involve J&M. A great storyline is possible without them, though.
It is???
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CatherineEarnshaw


PhoenixRising05
Dec 4 2008, 02:28 AM
goldylicious
Dec 4 2008, 01:46 AM
To change the subject a bit, I always have thought since Steve came back, that when he was working for Stefano, and when he was doing all sorts of other stuff, he had an affair with Gina (Hope). Maybe they had a kid that was given up for adoption. Steve has his memories back, but wouldn't want to say anything, as to ruin his relationship with Kayla, destroy Bo and Hope's relationship, and the friendship the four have. Steve never felt good enough for Kayla, and now he has many reasons to believe this is true. It would bring Steve and Kayla back to their core relationship. How would Bo and Hope react to learning more things that Hope did as Gina? What would happen to the Steve and Bo friendship; the Hope and Kayla friendship. What if this kid was raised as a DiMera somewhere, or he ended up in Salem, hell on wheels. As the son of Steve and Hope, he is a Horton; maybe he gets paired up with Chelsea. How would Bo and Hope deal with!? Some much to explore I bring this up because I think it could be a good long lasting story, but fans of the couples would hate it. The same thing that happened during the John, Marlena, Bo, Hope story. As a fan of the whole show, I enjoyed it. But sometimes fans of particular couples only watch the show for their couple, and thus anything that goes against what they want, makes the show poorly written.
I actually did that in my old fan fiction and would love to actually see the whole story through.

Steve, Hope, and Marlena were all MIA at once. I always wanted the show to link those stories. So much potential but I do think alot of the potential is in mixing things up (such as Steve and Hope) and the fanbases would put the kibosh on that.
and the writers who were so wonderful did, let's see, paired John and Hope and marlnea and Tony. Such good writing lol But in the end, Ken let them do it.
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