Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]



Hello, soap fans -- and welcome to Daytime Royalty!

For those unfamiliar, we are an uncensored community for fans and lovers of the daytime genre. We have a no-holds-barred atmosphere in regards to the shows, writers, actors etc. but we do not allow member bashing in any form.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Join our community!

If you're already a member, please log in to your account to access all of our features.

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Storyline info from Sandra Robinson on BWR!
Topic Started: Dec 18 2008, 01:05 AM (5,110 Views)
ladyofthelake
Member Avatar
Professor-in-training

Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 12:48 AM
Ellie
Dec 21 2008, 12:34 AM
goldylicious
Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM
The biggest mistake happened when they brought John back alive. Somehow, the emotion of his death and funeral, brought some reality back to Salem. Marlena going up against Stefano could have driven the show for years. But the moment John turned up alive, all credibility was lost. John, with his 10 different character changes, had become a joke. Marlena finally had a chance to start anew, and then they ruined it. I guess I should have been more clear. There is and was still lots of story to tell for Marlena. But with John, everything has been has a been there, done that feel. Marlena had three strong romantic pairings on the show, she certainly could have found a new one down the line. For me, that would be half the fun.
So John and Marlena have "reached their expiration date", but Marlena and Stefano "could have driven the show for years"??
Yes, I believe that is what I said :)
LOL. :D Mikegoldy, you bring up some very good points. I think a lot of it is, too, that quite a few people enjoy John and Marlena SEPARATE from each other and individually, they probably have a lot of story to tell. Now, I'm solely basing this on boards I go to that tend to take a more general Days' viewer approach to things, including comments from this board in the past, all lumped together. I think some viewers just get tired of them being tied to one another. Thus, there is sometimes (dare I say often?) a lot of interest when John takes on a new love in between his reunions with Marlena. Quite a few people like Marlena more when she doesn't need to be rescued by John or gets all breathy over him. (yes, you read it right. I said it. Sometimes I think Dee overdoes the breathy ingenue thing in love scenes. It's not an uncommon assessment about her acting.) When she gets kick ass with Stefano, when she's seen as a psychiatrist or a friend (when John's not around), she does better. When John's around, it seems she can think everyone else can go to hell.

If there really was a lot of story to tell, as much as some people complain about them NOT telling "their story", don't you think they would have found something? Besides the usual complaints about the writers, isn't that saying something that they haven't written more? I would love to see totally new storylines involving them separately, not together. I might actually become a Marlena fan again. She was my favorite character years ago, then I quit watching around the time of the Pawn, so I never saw this wonderful gushy romantic stuff. All I know is, when i started watching again in 2005, my favorite character was a sad parody to me. That tough strong doc who lived through the heartache of losing a child and a sister became a simpering "heroine" who always needed to be saved. The thought of this character being a psychiatrist and having her mind altered almost as much as her paramour's mind was altered was a little too much for me. This psychiatrist, who works with other people's minds, has had amnesia, was possessed, and apparently brainwashed (I don't remember the reasoning for her being this stupid killer), AND came back from the dead. Not a glowing recommendation for her to give mental advice to other people! At the very least, I would have LOVED to seen her getting help from someone else. They do that, you know. Mental health experts get help from each other. Ministers seek counseling all the time to be able to handle what they do. They have to. And for Marlena to be the soul rescuer of John and his mental state all the time? I've read complaints about the "J&M" story since Reilly's second round. And for all the altars built to Sherri Anderson, we don't know that she wouldn't do the same thing to them. Writers don't always get what they want, either. (and we don't know that Sherri wouldn't push new couples to the forefront like she did in the 80's.)

Anyway, Mikegoldy, you have summed up stuff that makes a lot of sense for those of us who aren't necessarily anti-Marlena. I like your style! :wave:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SpriteEyes
Member Avatar


Mikegoldy
Dec 20 2008, 11:32 PM
Well, first off. I thought Sandra was charming in the interview. She could have talked forever :) And sure the story for John and Marlena stinks. Did anyone really think that they were going to get this amazing, romantic departure, so people would miss them? It's clear to me IMO, the people who are most upset about Dee and Drake leaving, were really only watching for Dee and Drake. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I'm sure TPTB know that. Personally, I don't think they do anything for the show as a couple anymore. The story has been played out. If John had stayed dead, there was still lots of potential for Marlena. But together, the ship has sailed. I often wonder how the Doug and Julie fans felt when their entire story became about Bo and Hope and then were written out in such a cavalier way. I feel bad for fans of J&M, just as I did for those who vowed never to watch again when Matt Ashford was fired and Jack and Jennifer ended. But this isn't a book with a beginning, middle, and an end. Sometimes, characters need to be rested. And in this case, I think John and Marlena are at that point. It is really rotten that they seem to be getting such a bad, ending story. But, I'm not sorry to see a new character on the show, and two characters written off who have reached their expiration date.
:applause: :cheers: :cheer: :hail:

ICAM. After awhile it's time to just let them go. The show can't live in the past forever.

Quote:
 
Sometimes I think Dee overdoes the breathy ingenue thing in love scenes.
You're being kind. It isn't somtimes. It's kinda cute on someone Stephanies age, not so much when Marlena does it.
Edited by SpriteEyes, Dec 21 2008, 08:04 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kyrai


ladyofthelake
Dec 21 2008, 06:39 AM
Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 12:48 AM
Ellie
Dec 21 2008, 12:34 AM
goldylicious
Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM
The biggest mistake happened when they brought John back alive. Somehow, the emotion of his death and funeral, brought some reality back to Salem. Marlena going up against Stefano could have driven the show for years. But the moment John turned up alive, all credibility was lost. John, with his 10 different character changes, had become a joke. Marlena finally had a chance to start anew, and then they ruined it. I guess I should have been more clear. There is and was still lots of story to tell for Marlena. But with John, everything has been has a been there, done that feel. Marlena had three strong romantic pairings on the show, she certainly could have found a new one down the line. For me, that would be half the fun.
So John and Marlena have "reached their expiration date", but Marlena and Stefano "could have driven the show for years"??
Yes, I believe that is what I said :)
LOL. :D Mikegoldy, you bring up some very good points. I think a lot of it is, too, that quite a few people enjoy John and Marlena SEPARATE from each other and individually, they probably have a lot of story to tell. Now, I'm solely basing this on boards I go to that tend to take a more general Days' viewer approach to things, including comments from this board in the past, all lumped together. I think some viewers just get tired of them being tied to one another. Thus, there is sometimes (dare I say often?) a lot of interest when John takes on a new love in between his reunions with Marlena. Quite a few people like Marlena more when she doesn't need to be rescued by John or gets all breathy over him. (yes, you read it right. I said it. Sometimes I think Dee overdoes the breathy ingenue thing in love scenes. It's not an uncommon assessment about her acting.) When she gets kick ass with Stefano, when she's seen as a psychiatrist or a friend (when John's not around), she does better. When John's around, it seems she can think everyone else can go to hell.

If there really was a lot of story to tell, as much as some people complain about them NOT telling "their story", don't you think they would have found something? Besides the usual complaints about the writers, isn't that saying something that they haven't written more? I would love to see totally new storylines involving them separately, not together. I might actually become a Marlena fan again. She was my favorite character years ago, then I quit watching around the time of the Pawn, so I never saw this wonderful gushy romantic stuff. All I know is, when i started watching again in 2005, my favorite character was a sad parody to me. That tough strong doc who lived through the heartache of losing a child and a sister became a simpering "heroine" who always needed to be saved. The thought of this character being a psychiatrist and having her mind altered almost as much as her paramour's mind was altered was a little too much for me. This psychiatrist, who works with other people's minds, has had amnesia, was possessed, and apparently brainwashed (I don't remember the reasoning for her being this stupid killer), AND came back from the dead. Not a glowing recommendation for her to give mental advice to other people! At the very least, I would have LOVED to seen her getting help from someone else. They do that, you know. Mental health experts get help from each other. Ministers seek counseling all the time to be able to handle what they do. They have to. And for Marlena to be the soul rescuer of John and his mental state all the time? I've read complaints about the "J&M" story since Reilly's second round. And for all the altars built to Sherri Anderson, we don't know that she wouldn't do the same thing to them. Writers don't always get what they want, either. (and we don't know that Sherri wouldn't push new couples to the forefront like she did in the 80's.)

Anyway, Mikegoldy, you have summed up stuff that makes a lot of sense for those of us who aren't necessarily anti-Marlena. I like your style! :wave:
I understand what you're saying, but doesn't this all still come back to the writing vs. an expiration date on John and Marlena? If there is really an expiration date on couple that you want to be together, wouldn't Bope and Payla be in the same situation? I used to watch Victor and Nicky on Y&R back before the pawn story, and I believe they are still together (off and on from what I've heard, but still a couple that seems to be a couple?) For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

I've always loved how the Brady's were so strong on family, and they adopted John and Marlena into that core. If we had known all along, that Stefano planted thoughts against Marlena and the Brady's and had seen John moving more to his dark side even with Ava, how much different could the story have been? I'd have loved to have seen everyone struggling to understand John while he's more Stefano or old style Vic like. John could have even teamed up with Stefano and Ava. I'd have rather him teamed up with Kate than Ava personally, but I would have enjoyed seeing Marlena, Bo, Hope, etc trying to reclaim him. I could see this going on for some time, with John actually being this new person, his family giving up on him and disliking what he's become. Marlena could have even moved on with another friend who she becomes closer to as she's realized John is gone. We could have seen Marlena moving on with her life, her practice.

Then after we think all hope is lost, there could be a story involving Bo and Hope investigating a crime or major crime syndicate that brings everyone together. We could have had some internal struggle with John's programming and new life vs. the ghost of his old self that was buried somewhere deep within. I think we got some of the struggle early on. Later, it just disappeared. It seemed more like family abandoning him because he was a victim of Stefano vs. him being so evil.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.

Regardless, I like alot of your thoughts here and enjoy the discussion. I just think a lot of things could have been done differently and poor writing overall is the problem vs any particular character or couple.
Edited by Kyrai, Dec 21 2008, 09:38 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikegoldy
Member Avatar


Kyrai
Dec 21 2008, 09:37 AM
ladyofthelake
Dec 21 2008, 06:39 AM
Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 12:48 AM
Ellie
Dec 21 2008, 12:34 AM
goldylicious
Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM
The biggest mistake happened when they brought John back alive. Somehow, the emotion of his death and funeral, brought some reality back to Salem. Marlena going up against Stefano could have driven the show for years. But the moment John turned up alive, all credibility was lost. John, with his 10 different character changes, had become a joke. Marlena finally had a chance to start anew, and then they ruined it. I guess I should have been more clear. There is and was still lots of story to tell for Marlena. But with John, everything has been has a been there, done that feel. Marlena had three strong romantic pairings on the show, she certainly could have found a new one down the line. For me, that would be half the fun.
So John and Marlena have "reached their expiration date", but Marlena and Stefano "could have driven the show for years"??
Yes, I believe that is what I said :)
LOL. :D Mikegoldy, you bring up some very good points. I think a lot of it is, too, that quite a few people enjoy John and Marlena SEPARATE from each other and individually, they probably have a lot of story to tell. Now, I'm solely basing this on boards I go to that tend to take a more general Days' viewer approach to things, including comments from this board in the past, all lumped together. I think some viewers just get tired of them being tied to one another. Thus, there is sometimes (dare I say often?) a lot of interest when John takes on a new love in between his reunions with Marlena. Quite a few people like Marlena more when she doesn't need to be rescued by John or gets all breathy over him. (yes, you read it right. I said it. Sometimes I think Dee overdoes the breathy ingenue thing in love scenes. It's not an uncommon assessment about her acting.) When she gets kick ass with Stefano, when she's seen as a psychiatrist or a friend (when John's not around), she does better. When John's around, it seems she can think everyone else can go to hell.

If there really was a lot of story to tell, as much as some people complain about them NOT telling "their story", don't you think they would have found something? Besides the usual complaints about the writers, isn't that saying something that they haven't written more? I would love to see totally new storylines involving them separately, not together. I might actually become a Marlena fan again. She was my favorite character years ago, then I quit watching around the time of the Pawn, so I never saw this wonderful gushy romantic stuff. All I know is, when i started watching again in 2005, my favorite character was a sad parody to me. That tough strong doc who lived through the heartache of losing a child and a sister became a simpering "heroine" who always needed to be saved. The thought of this character being a psychiatrist and having her mind altered almost as much as her paramour's mind was altered was a little too much for me. This psychiatrist, who works with other people's minds, has had amnesia, was possessed, and apparently brainwashed (I don't remember the reasoning for her being this stupid killer), AND came back from the dead. Not a glowing recommendation for her to give mental advice to other people! At the very least, I would have LOVED to seen her getting help from someone else. They do that, you know. Mental health experts get help from each other. Ministers seek counseling all the time to be able to handle what they do. They have to. And for Marlena to be the soul rescuer of John and his mental state all the time? I've read complaints about the "J&M" story since Reilly's second round. And for all the altars built to Sherri Anderson, we don't know that she wouldn't do the same thing to them. Writers don't always get what they want, either. (and we don't know that Sherri wouldn't push new couples to the forefront like she did in the 80's.)

Anyway, Mikegoldy, you have summed up stuff that makes a lot of sense for those of us who aren't necessarily anti-Marlena. I like your style! :wave:
I understand what you're saying, but doesn't this all still come back to the writing vs. an expiration date on John and Marlena? If there is really an expiration date on couple that you want to be together, wouldn't Bope and Payla be in the same situation? I used to watch Victor and Nicky on Y&R back before the pawn story, and I believe they are still together (off and on from what I've heard, but still a couple that seems to be a couple?) For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

I've always loved how the Brady's were so strong on family, and they adopted John and Marlena into that core. If we had known all along, that Stefano planted thoughts against Marlena and the Brady's and had seen John moving more to his dark side even with Ava, how much different could the story have been? I'd have loved to have seen everyone struggling to understand John while he's more Stefano or old style Vic like. John could have even teamed up with Stefano and Ava. I'd have rather him teamed up with Kate than Ava personally, but I would have enjoyed seeing Marlena, Bo, Hope, etc trying to reclaim him. I could see this going on for some time, with John actually being this new person, his family giving up on him and disliking what he's become. Marlena could have even moved on with another friend who she becomes closer to as she's realized John is gone. We could have seen Marlena moving on with her life, her practice.

Then after we think all hope is lost, there could be a story involving Bo and Hope investigating a crime or major crime syndicate that brings everyone together. We could have had some internal struggle with John's programming and new life vs. the ghost of his old self that was buried somewhere deep within. I think we got some of the struggle early on. Later, it just disappeared. It seemed more like family abandoning him because he was a victim of Stefano vs. him being so evil.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.

Regardless, I like alot of your thoughts here and enjoy the discussion. I just think a lot of things could have been done differently and poor writing overall is the problem vs any particular character or couple.
Certainly, the story has been handled badly. But, as a viewer, I feel like I have seen both John and Marlena presumed dead, suffering from amnesia, and brainwashed too many times for me to see anything fresh about them. The very idea that John would become a Pawn for Stefano AGAIN, and then Marlena would have to try to save John AGAIN, it's just been done to death. At the same time, if Marlena dealt with John's real death and had to try to keep her family together, while dealing with Stefano; that's interesting to me. There is plenty unexplored with that crazy and "complex" relationship. Either way, cutting Dee and Drake saves lots of money for the show and most likely not have any impact on the ratings. However, I find it kind of cruel when most of their stories did brings in the ratings in the 90's. But then, they got got paid a lot money for it, I'm sure :)

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
hops
Member Avatar


Kyrai
Dec 21 2008, 09:37 AM
For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.
Totally agree with these thoughts.

And, I don't think John and Marlena / Stefano playing out their story this year is anymore repetitive then any of the triangle stories that are going on right now. I watched these same kind of triangles 20 years ago and they never end, they just bring in a new man or women for whoever and no one ever commits and it's why I've stopped watching most soaps. So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ladyofthelake
Member Avatar
Professor-in-training

Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 01:17 PM
Certainly, the story has been handled badly. But, as a viewer, I feel like I have seen both John and Marlena presumed dead, suffering from amnesia, and brainwashed too many times for me to see anything fresh about them. The very idea that John would become a Pawn for Stefano AGAIN, and then Marlena would have to try to save John AGAIN, it's just been done to death. At the same time, if Marlena dealt with John's real death and had to try to keep her family together, while dealing with Stefano; that's interesting to me. There is plenty unexplored with that crazy and "complex" relationship. Either way, cutting Dee and Drake saves lots of money for the show and most likely not have any impact on the ratings. However, I find it kind of cruel when most of their stories did brings in the ratings in the 90's. But then, they got got paid a lot money for it, I'm sure :)

That would just make too much sense, wouldn't it? The John death repercussions. Ah, well.
John's death was actually very well done, and Dee Hall and MArtha Madison, especially Martha, did outstanding jobs. And I say especially Martha because it was such a pleasant surprise and something different for her.
That could have been such a beautiful storyline, and I will admit, although I found "Jawn" highly entertaining, the whole charade backstage was a crock.
And, to be honest (and at the risk of having people swoop down on me again), maybe the actors were getting tired of the same old same old? I'm sure they don't relish losing their jobs and would be willing to "take one for the team", but deep down inside, what if they DID want to do something new, with different actors and a whole different scenario? I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who considers herself more of an actor's fan than a character fan. If they're screwing my favorite actor over, I want something better for them. And, this might be a blessing in disguise for them.
And, who knows? Seeing them on different shows might just make me a fan of theirs again. Stranger things have happened. :D
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
e83talus
Member Avatar


hops
Dec 21 2008, 01:30 PM
Kyrai
Dec 21 2008, 09:37 AM
For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.
Totally agree with these thoughts.

And, I don't think John and Marlena / Stefano playing out their story this year is anymore repetitive then any of the triangle stories that are going on right now. I watched these same kind of triangles 20 years ago and they never end, they just bring in a new man or women for whoever and no one ever commits and it's why I've stopped watching most soaps. So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked.
[So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked./b]

ICAM with this statement. This is the main difference between old soap viewers and new soap viewers. New viewers tend to be fickle and less invested in families, traditions, and the long haul. Thats why we vet viewers hate the bed hopping going on while the newbies love the adventure and excitement of sleeping around just because.

It completely disgusts some people, me included, that Max has been given so few female options onscreen that he has to date his cousins. It is awful that Days got rid of the late 20-somethings (Belle, Shawn, Mimi, Chloe, so that Phillip has to go looking at the sorority crew for dates. Brady's have always been about family and it would stand to reason that Caroline would and should have a problem with her son, Max, dating her grandchildren, Stephanie and Chelsea.

I don't think old time fans of the show like us should be discounted but indeed Days has. Instead of having a combination of vets and younger s/l's that bring all demographics in they have decided to concentrate on the younger demo and completely disregard their vet viewers. I don't have a problem with newer viewers not "getting" the couples thing with Bope, Jarlena, and Payla. I am sure they don't understand why we don't like the partner swapping that has been going on over the last 6 months. Tha being said, Days execs have not been successful in writing for both those crowds which is a lack of creativity on their parts, not viewers. But let TPTB go on as they have been as older viewers tune out more and more.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikegoldy
Member Avatar


e83talus
Dec 21 2008, 01:57 PM
hops
Dec 21 2008, 01:30 PM
Kyrai
Dec 21 2008, 09:37 AM
For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.
Totally agree with these thoughts.

And, I don't think John and Marlena / Stefano playing out their story this year is anymore repetitive then any of the triangle stories that are going on right now. I watched these same kind of triangles 20 years ago and they never end, they just bring in a new man or women for whoever and no one ever commits and it's why I've stopped watching most soaps. So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked.
[So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked./b]

ICAM with this statement. This is the main difference between old soap viewers and new soap viewers. New viewers tend to be fickle and less invested in families, traditions, and the long haul. Thats why we vet viewers hate the bed hopping going on while the newbies love the adventure and excitement of sleeping around just because.

It completely disgusts some people, me included, that Max has been given so few female options onscreen that he has to date his cousins. It is awful that Days got rid of the late 20-somethings (Belle, Shawn, Mimi, Chloe, so that Phillip has to go looking at the sorority crew for dates. Brady's have always been about family and it would stand to reason that Caroline would and should have a problem with her son, Max, dating her grandchildren, Stephanie and Chelsea.

I don't think old time fans of the show like us should be discounted but indeed Days has. Instead of having a combination of vets and younger s/l's that bring all demographics in they have decided to concentrate on the younger demo and completely disregard their vet viewers. I don't have a problem with newer viewers not "getting" the couples thing with Bope, Jarlena, and Payla. I am sure they don't understand why we don't like the partner swapping that has been going on over the last 6 months. Tha being said, Days execs have not been successful in writing for both those crowds which is a lack of creativity on their parts, not viewers. But let TPTB go on as they have been as older viewers tune out more and more.

I'm not sure what you consider a new soap fan or an old soap fan, but what I find ironic is that many of John and Marlena's fans didn't even get into them until their second run. And these are young viewers. How many years does someone have to watch soaps for them to be considered a veteran fan? :) As a viewer since 1984 (which I'm sure means that I'm a newcomer lol), I am very big on family on the show. I love the Horton family, and wish we had more family members on the show and there was more family interaction. I'm still a big fan of Bo and Hope to this day. And if Peter and Kristian were cut, I would be just as upset as you are about Dee and Drake. I'd still watch though. I don't think wanting to see the end of John and Marlena the couple (especially since Marlena had two strong other pairings), ultimately indicates that you have a short attention span and only want random couples to sex each other up lol
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
e83talus
Member Avatar


Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 02:11 PM
e83talus
Dec 21 2008, 01:57 PM
hops
Dec 21 2008, 01:30 PM
Kyrai
Dec 21 2008, 09:37 AM
For me, John and Marlena's struggle against Stefano has been more about family than either one of them just up against Stefano on their own. Without a stake, I'm not sure I can see years of story with either John or Marlena just going up against Stefano. It's about relationships and family to me. I do think this may be where Days has changed. It doesn't seem to be about relationships and family anymore (not just for J&M but for everyone), and if so, the show is just over for me.

I don't think that the way the writers have written John and Marlena poorly meaning no one can write them well. I can see so many ways this year could have gone. How different would this story have been if Stefano had planted 'anti-Marlena, anti-Brady' feelings in John? It was somewhat alluded to early in the story that Stefano altered John's ability to even feel. He programmed John to kill Colleen so it was definitely more than just memories involved. I wish we knew what Hogan had intended vs what played out. The story was wonderful in the beginning.

Everything on the show seems so geared to getting couples together asap versus taking time to set up and enjoy the story as it's playing out. I think if they just focused on stories and characters vs. a couple, it would be so much better for the show as a whole.
Totally agree with these thoughts.

And, I don't think John and Marlena / Stefano playing out their story this year is anymore repetitive then any of the triangle stories that are going on right now. I watched these same kind of triangles 20 years ago and they never end, they just bring in a new man or women for whoever and no one ever commits and it's why I've stopped watching most soaps. So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked.
[So to me, watching a couple overcome obstacles and still love each other and want to be with each other is a lot more interesting, because it's the exception not the rule. It's why I still care about John and Marlena and didn't stop watching, even when the writing sucked./b]

ICAM with this statement. This is the main difference between old soap viewers and new soap viewers. New viewers tend to be fickle and less invested in families, traditions, and the long haul. Thats why we vet viewers hate the bed hopping going on while the newbies love the adventure and excitement of sleeping around just because.

It completely disgusts some people, me included, that Max has been given so few female options onscreen that he has to date his cousins. It is awful that Days got rid of the late 20-somethings (Belle, Shawn, Mimi, Chloe, so that Phillip has to go looking at the sorority crew for dates. Brady's have always been about family and it would stand to reason that Caroline would and should have a problem with her son, Max, dating her grandchildren, Stephanie and Chelsea.

I don't think old time fans of the show like us should be discounted but indeed Days has. Instead of having a combination of vets and younger s/l's that bring all demographics in they have decided to concentrate on the younger demo and completely disregard their vet viewers. I don't have a problem with newer viewers not "getting" the couples thing with Bope, Jarlena, and Payla. I am sure they don't understand why we don't like the partner swapping that has been going on over the last 6 months. Tha being said, Days execs have not been successful in writing for both those crowds which is a lack of creativity on their parts, not viewers. But let TPTB go on as they have been as older viewers tune out more and more.

I'm not sure what you consider a new soap fan or an old soap fan, but what I find ironic is that many of John and Marlena's fans didn't even get into them until their second run. And these are young viewers. How many years does someone have to watch soaps for them to be considered a veteran fan? :) As a viewer since 1984 (which I'm sure means that I'm a newcomer lol), I am very big on family on the show. I love the Horton family, and wish we had more family members on the show and there was more family interaction. I'm still a big fan of Bo and Hope to this day. And if Peter and Kristian were cut, I would be just as upset as you are about Dee and Drake. I'd still watch though. I don't think wanting to see the end of John and Marlena the couple (especially since Marlena had two strong other pairings), ultimately indicates that you have a short attention span and only want random couples to sex each other up lol
I am not saying that J&M or the lack of them has to do with the short attention span of todays audience. The two are not related.

I am saying if other stories on screen interested me I would not be leaving with J&M. Some of us, and I can't speak for all of course, J&M fans got this way over time. I did not just start watching and routing for J&M. I have been with this show since 1986, so yes I am a vet, and I have sat through bad writing fads before. If there are at least two or three s/l's that interest you, you stay and grin and bear the rest. But never have I been so uninterested in not a single other story on screen before. Look around boards, talk to family members and frineds not on boards, this seems to be the case with a lot more viewers today, and not just J&M fans.

The most recent grin and bear it moment for me was Summer 07 when the show had the Vendetta that was Sami and Touch my Thighs (I mean the skies). I sat there and continued to watch and tape, not because of J&M because they were only on about 5 times and even then reading stupid letters about, guess who, Sami! I stayed because the Andre, Stefano, Belle, Phillip, Shawn, Chloe stuff was okay and interesting. Nothing is interesting to me right now. If it was just me, you could say, E83talus is simply being difficult but it isn't just me.

I am not going to get into who is a vet viewer or not, but I will say that those who watched pre 2000 saw a completely different show than now along with characters, their motivations, etc. My indicating vet viewers was simply to separate those viewers who may not know of the Brady (blacks included here), Horton, Kiriakis, and yes Dimera family histories and traditions. These things and character driven stories, IMO, have not been the same since around 2000.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pretty In Pink


I wouldn't mind if Drake stayed on the show. John has been a lot more interesting with some of the other women that he has been paired up with. When John and Marlena are together, there is too much gasping and "bird feeding their young" type kissing. It's enough to make anyone sick to their stomach. I didn't mind them back in the day, but their story has ran it's course and it's time for them to move on. Marlena has become a joke. I don't know if it's post menopause or what but she is always angry, moody, and bitchy to everyone. I will be glad when she is gone for good and I hope that she never comes back. She is a depressing character that should have been written off a long time ago.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pretty In Pink


ladyofthelake
Dec 21 2008, 06:39 AM
Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 12:48 AM
Ellie
Dec 21 2008, 12:34 AM
goldylicious
Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM
The biggest mistake happened when they brought John back alive. Somehow, the emotion of his death and funeral, brought some reality back to Salem. Marlena going up against Stefano could have driven the show for years. But the moment John turned up alive, all credibility was lost. John, with his 10 different character changes, had become a joke. Marlena finally had a chance to start anew, and then they ruined it. I guess I should have been more clear. There is and was still lots of story to tell for Marlena. But with John, everything has been has a been there, done that feel. Marlena had three strong romantic pairings on the show, she certainly could have found a new one down the line. For me, that would be half the fun.
So John and Marlena have "reached their expiration date", but Marlena and Stefano "could have driven the show for years"??
Yes, I believe that is what I said :)
LOL. :D Mikegoldy, you bring up some very good points. I think a lot of it is, too, that quite a few people enjoy John and Marlena SEPARATE from each other and individually, they probably have a lot of story to tell. Now, I'm solely basing this on boards I go to that tend to take a more general Days' viewer approach to things, including comments from this board in the past, all lumped together. I think some viewers just get tired of them being tied to one another. Thus, there is sometimes (dare I say often?) a lot of interest when John takes on a new love in between his reunions with Marlena. Quite a few people like Marlena more when she doesn't need to be rescued by John or gets all breathy over him. (yes, you read it right. I said it. Sometimes I think Dee overdoes the breathy ingenue thing in love scenes. It's not an uncommon assessment about her acting.) When she gets kick ass with Stefano, when she's seen as a psychiatrist or a friend (when John's not around), she does better. When John's around, it seems she can think everyone else can go to hell.

If there really was a lot of story to tell, as much as some people complain about them NOT telling "their story", don't you think they would have found something? Besides the usual complaints about the writers, isn't that saying something that they haven't written more? I would love to see totally new storylines involving them separately, not together. I might actually become a Marlena fan again. She was my favorite character years ago, then I quit watching around the time of the Pawn, so I never saw this wonderful gushy romantic stuff. All I know is, when i started watching again in 2005, my favorite character was a sad parody to me. That tough strong doc who lived through the heartache of losing a child and a sister became a simpering "heroine" who always needed to be saved. The thought of this character being a psychiatrist and having her mind altered almost as much as her paramour's mind was altered was a little too much for me. This psychiatrist, who works with other people's minds, has had amnesia, was possessed, and apparently brainwashed (I don't remember the reasoning for her being this stupid killer), AND came back from the dead. Not a glowing recommendation for her to give mental advice to other people! At the very least, I would have LOVED to seen her getting help from someone else. They do that, you know. Mental health experts get help from each other. Ministers seek counseling all the time to be able to handle what they do. They have to. And for Marlena to be the soul rescuer of John and his mental state all the time? I've read complaints about the "J&M" story since Reilly's second round. And for all the altars built to Sherri Anderson, we don't know that she wouldn't do the same thing to them. Writers don't always get what they want, either. (and we don't know that Sherri wouldn't push new couples to the forefront like she did in the 80's.)

Anyway, Mikegoldy, you have summed up stuff that makes a lot of sense for those of us who aren't necessarily anti-Marlena. I like your style! :wave:
:iagree: :applause: :cheer: :hail:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikegoldy
Member Avatar


DAYS truly deviated from its heart and soul during JER's first run. I don't think when Ted Corday created DAYS, he had it planned that he wanted demonic possession to be a major plot point lol Anyway, there is no denying that John and Marlena have been written terribly for years as have lots of characters. There is still a lot I like about the show. I enjoy watching JKJ, James Scott, Kristian and Peter, Rachel Melvin, Koslow, and Zuker. When I was a teenager I watched for couples. As I have gotten older I watch for story.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
e83talus
Member Avatar


Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 02:47 PM
DAYS truly deviated from its heart and soul during JER's first run. I don't think when Ted Corday created DAYS, he had it planned that he wanted demonic possession to be a major plot point lol Anyway, there is no denying that John and Marlena have been written terribly for years as have lots of characters. There is still a lot I like about the show. I enjoy watching JKJ, James Scott, Kristian and Peter, Rachel Melvin, Koslow, and Zuker. When I was a teenager I watched for couples. As I have gotten older I watch for story.
Finally we can agree. Not about the demonic possession because as awful as it was, it was like a train wreck and I could not look away if I tried. It also serves as another way for J&M fans to justify that they would do anything for each other, even sacrifice themselves to the devil.

I am talking about changing from couples to stories. I have adjusted to the stories as well and I simply don't like the ones on Days right now. The actors are still fabulous as you have noted and we can agree on that as well. :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikegoldy
Member Avatar


LOL, sounds good. And I really hope you get some good John and Marlena scenes before they leave. their fans deserve it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PhoenixRising05
Member Avatar
GET EM STEPH!!

I wasn't going to jump back in but I will...

I used to be a HUGE John/Roman and Marlena fan and that says alot because I loved Wayne's Roman and Marlena and was happy when Wayne returned. Drake and Dee sold me on J&M during the affair story. I followed them through the great Maison Blanche story, through the sometimes hard to watch Possession story (creative but I didn't like the way it was all played at times), and through the great Aremid stories and Kristen/John/Marlena saga.

For me, J&M fell apart after JER left the first time. No one has truly "got" them since, not even JER in his second run. It's kind of like J&J. Only certain writers seem to "get" them and write them right. Oddly enough. JER sucked with them the first time around but the second time around he wrote some good stuff for them when they were actually together and Jack wasn't dying LOL. J&J never were truly in their complete element until their final two weeks on the show. That was them. No one else came close to that dynamic in their 5-6 year return.

I was shocked by how awful J&M were during JER's second run because he wrote them like a poet in his first run. Even through awful material, they still worked in the 90's. Since 1997, they haven't. One reason IMO is that both characters were sacrificed for the sake of them being a couple. By that I mean that Marlena had nothing to do on her own after 1997. Not a thing. John had ample story. He had the Gina arc and they even tossed him in with the kids in Puerto Rico in 2001. The only time Marlena got anything was when Brady returned but even that sort of became all about John. They had a chance with Hattie/Marlena but dropped the ball. The stuff they got in 2002 could've been good but they dropped the ball again by reversing the parentage of Cassie and Rex. Marlena and Tony being their parents would've been interesting. They were finally going into Marlena's past and she was getting her own material and they gutted it when B&C were demoted.

Marlena had nothing solid until JER came back and made her the serial killer and that crashed and burned real fast. And still J&M didn't feel the same. That magic and passion was gone for me. They played like cartoons for me. John was this over the top, superhero and Marlena was far from being the feisty, formidable woman she once was. Don't even get me started on that Alex North trash. JER's second run also forever trashed Dee and Drake's acting. They got too used to the campy style because Dee's little gasping and other annoying tendencies (which many actors have but her's are obvious and this is coming from a fan of her's) along with Drake's were becoming more and more cumbersome. Dee finally got a chance to go back to her roots and she did when they killed John. That was the Marlena I love. Feisty, formidable, independent and Dee was no longer overacting or gasping or anything. She was Marlena again. Even when nuJohn came, she still was. I think Ed Scott helped that along. Regardless, I liked the writing for Marlena overall right up to October and they lost me.

Anyway, I've been a fan since the early 80's and I feel for the fans losing them but, for me, J&M have been dead for me as a couple since 1997. It just hasn't felt the same. And both characters have been kind of a dud for me the past two months so I, personally, am ready for them to leave. I think they need a break and that they need to be rested but I can understand their fans not agreeing. All I can say is it is alot like what happened to Doug and Julie and even Mickey and Maggie and other couples in the 90's. They got shoved aside hastily to and their fans were just as pissed. I've said it before but I will say it again. Days has been down this road before with changes like this. It did it in the 80's and it did it in the 90's and why it took so long to do it in the 2000's is beyond me but I, personally, feel it's past time for a radical change like this. It may not be successful. We'll see but so far it is.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jiggs
Member Avatar


ladyofthelake
Dec 19 2008, 07:46 PM
Jiggs
Dec 19 2008, 03:49 AM
Sami will never be a heroine.
Never say never. People never thought Dee Hall would get fired, either. Now, most likely, it won't happen. It COULD happen, if they had given Sami time off during Ali's maternity leave, then came up with fresh material for her. With a good writer and good direction, yeah, she could become a heroine. A heroine doesn't always have to be the favored daughter.
I like to say never. Never happens a lot more than you might imagine.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
hops
Member Avatar


Mikegoldy
Dec 21 2008, 12:29 AM
hops
Dec 21 2008, 12:08 AM
I don't feel John and Marlena have reached their expiration date. There was plenty of story to tell. The writers and producers just chose not to play it or write it. Their story this year was started and stopped a few times. Marlena putting Stefano in a coma? John taking over the Dimera empire, John and Marlena growing closer. None of these were explored. All tied up in one or two episodes. That's lazy writing and to me has nothing to do with who the characters are.

In the end, I didn't expect a great story for them (is there anything great on DAys right now?) but I guess I did expect it to maybe focus on them. And ya, I do watch for Deidre and Drake, lol, and yes, it would only follow their fans would be the most upset. Watching a soap or any television show is a selfish pursuit. If other characters had been cut, I could understand how their fans would feel, but I wouldn't stop watching the show, I would probably feel as you do now. And I find it ironic that the writers have been unable to pin the character of Marlena down this year, but they seem to be writing Dr. Taylor very much like Marlena and seem to be replacing her before she has even left the building.

The biggest mistake happened when they brought John back alive. Somehow, the emotion of his death and funeral, brought some reality back to Salem. Marlena going up against Stefano could have driven the show for years. But the moment John turned up alive, all credibility was lost. John, with his 10 different character changes, had become a joke. Marlena finally had a chance to start anew, and then they ruined it. I guess I should have been more clear. There is and was still lots of story to tell for Marlena. But with John, everything has been has a been there, done that feel. Marlena had three strong romantic pairings on the show, she certainly could have found a new one down the line. For me, that would be half the fun.
I don't feel the character of John had become a joke at all. And though Marlena may have had two other pairings, she has been in love with John and he with her since she thought he was Roman, if we go by how old Sami is, that would be over 30 years in Salem. And if John and Marlena have been there done that, what about Bo & Hope....is it time for them to break up and find new loves? I don't really care if they do or not, that's not something I think about. I'm more interested in a good story.

I think Marlena/John with Stefano as the conflict could have driven story for at least a few more years. There are other couples on the show for fans who don't like J&M and there are the new characters for those that like multiple hook ups. I think there is or was a place for all of them. But I guess it is a mute point. John and Marlena will be gone soon. One less super couple to worry about.
Edited by hops, Dec 22 2008, 02:10 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kyrai


hops
Dec 22 2008, 02:05 AM
I don't feel the character of John had become a joke at all. And though Marlena may have had two other pairings, she has been in love with John and he with her since she thought he was Roman, if we go by how old Sami is, that would be over 30 years in Salem. And if John and Marlena have been there done that, what about Bo & Hope....is it time for them to break up and find new loves? I don't really care if they do or not, that's not something I think about. I'm more interested in a good story.

I think Marlena/John with Stefano as the conflict could have driven story for at least a few more years. There are other couples on the show for fans who don't like J&M and there are the new characters for those that like multiple hook ups. I think there is or was a place for all of them. But I guess it is a mute point. John and Marlena will be gone soon. One less super couple to worry about.
Same here. I really loved new John early this year, and I thought it was a very interesting change. I enjoyed it up through the plane crash, and even after. From what I read, it seemed like many enjoyed the change. The story just never went anywhere due to lack of clear direction from the writers (or whoever). Now that they've fired John and Marlena, it has nothing to do with the god-awful writing we've seen. It's just that John is a used up character and no one can write for them as a couple?

The writers haven't written Marlena well with John, so the problem is that John and Marlena are a couple, NOT that the writers haven't tried to write stories for Marlena as a psychiatrist or her own person? Why does it make a difference if John is alive or not for the writers to write for Marlena as a professional? I just don't get that reasoning. All they need to do is actually show her doing her job and getting involved in other characters lives.

I can understand not everyone wanted another pawn story, but I think for many, the problem wasn't this pawn story. It was that this pawn story was thoroughly mucked up by the writers and all the backstage drama that took place because the writers were writing so horribly. If the writing wasn't bad all around, then I could see saying it's just J&M, but the writing for everyone, except maybe Nicole, was off for everyone all year.

I can handle John and Marlena being written out. I just hate that they are getting blamed for some of the worst writing I've ever seen.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kyrai


ladyofthelake
Dec 21 2008, 01:48 PM
And, to be honest (and at the risk of having people swoop down on me again), maybe the actors were getting tired of the same old same old? I'm sure they don't relish losing their jobs and would be willing to "take one for the team", but deep down inside, what if they DID want to do something new, with different actors and a whole different scenario? I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who considers herself more of an actor's fan than a character fan. If they're screwing my favorite actor over, I want something better for them. And, this might be a blessing in disguise for them.
And, who knows? Seeing them on different shows might just make me a fan of theirs again. Stranger things have happened. :D
I promise I'm not swooping down. I just saw this and find it interesting.

I'm not sure if you're saying Drake and Deidre were tired of being John and Marlena. I believe they do want change. Drake seemed to be enjoying playing new John this year, and I know Deidre was bouncing at the thought of being able to play Sam a few months ago, but I don't think they wanted off the show. I always have the impression they loved their characters (jmo). I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted better writing for their characters though. I know I did, and I loved the new John angle this year. I wish they'd kept Marlena strong with her edge like she was through the plane crash. I wish we'd seen this story play out, and not just with a neat little John is back to old John, and they are John and Marlena again.

Personally, I believe an actor on a show should do whatever is best for the show. If he/she are burnt out, then they should deal with it or leave. However, as a fan, I like things being refreshed and different. If an actor is burnt out on a character, there's a good chance it needs to be changed for the audience as well. Awhile back in an interview, Drake said conflict is good and we need to change things up, and I agree with him 100%, not because I think as an actor they need change (that's why it's a job), but as a fan, I want change. For the actor, it may actually be easier to keep the status quo, but I'd like the actor to want to keep things lively and entertaining. I think he and Deidre have always been willing to do whatever was asked of them, and in my totally subjective impression, I always feel like D&D enjoyed being given something different. They wanted to shock and keep the fans interested. It's one of the things I've enjoyed. Things may be painful, but it is good to have the change. Kinda like after war, you appreciate peace more.

I hope Drake and Deidre get on shows where I can actually enjoy the whole show again. Even though I've only watched Days for many years, I like the soap genre. Much as I hate losing the characers of John and Marlena because I don't think there will ever be another couple like them with so much history and so much to explore, I'd like to see them with a fresh start and unhampered by writing woes and all this backstage drama.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · DAYS: News, Spoilers & Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply