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Weekly Discussion: 1/18 - 1/22
Topic Started: Jan 16 2010, 08:29 PM (7,266 Views)
Paxton
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Kenny
Jan 18 2010, 10:43 AM
She did nothing wrong by murdering Lawrence. He deserved it. He was physically and emotionally abusive to her and he was threatening to kill her child. He had it coming.
Well, I'm not sure I'd classify homicide, even legally justifiable, as "nothing wrong." I think the show is going to quite some pains to show that Lawrence had not a single redeeming quality about him and that he was a genuine threat to Carly and to her daughter, but most of Salem doesn't know that, do they? I admit I haven't been paying super close attention to this storyline but I thought pretty much only Bo knows. Carly did admit to Vivian that she had killed Lawrence but Vivian is never going to agree it was ok for her to kill him. Which reminds me--Vivian had someone else take the rap for her, right? Why are the good hypocrites of Salem still throwing Lawrence's murder in her face?

It really never makes any sense what Salemites ignore/overlook and what they don't on this show. EJ ought to be Salem's biggest pariah, considering all his felonies, and yet he was allowed into Maggie Horton's home to express condolences and was even offered words of support by Hope. Sami has become so glittery and golden you have to avert your eyes. Everything crappy Melanie ever did has been swept under the convenient all-purpose rug of her shitty childhood, yet Stephanie's rape and her subsequent kidnapping at the hands of EJ and how that might have affected her--ignored. Chloe was bashed mercilessly on her return to Salem and blamed by one and all for getting Brady hooked on drugs, despite no evidence that it was her fault. I mean, it's all just crappy, plot-point writing, and yes, it's super annoying when one of your favorites (like in my case, Nicole) has to pay when others skate free or never have their pasts brought up.
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sandyeggo1


Kenny
Jan 18 2010, 10:49 AM
sandyeggo1
Jan 18 2010, 10:45 AM
Kenny
Jan 18 2010, 10:12 AM
I see somebody's still Chappellous. ;)
What is that some kind of cult language? :shrug: Oh wait, I know what is it now...PIG latin. How fitting. :lol:
Hardy har har. You're clever.

Really though, I just get a kick out of your severe Carly hatred, LoL. I don't think I've ever seen you post a single thing that doesn't pertain to hating Carly and/or Crystal Chappell. And that's fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. It just seems like that's your only opinion regarding the show. It's alright though. I get a kick out of it.
Look closer, you'll see other posts and comments. But I do it for entertainment purposes only. It's no secret that I am not a fan of CC or Carly. It's just a response from a notorious smart ass to all of the over-hype and over pimping of Carly/CC. You should have seen what I wrote about Billie ;)
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karmakatch63


Paxton
Jan 18 2010, 11:02 AM
Kenny
Jan 18 2010, 10:43 AM
She did nothing wrong by murdering Lawrence. He deserved it. He was physically and emotionally abusive to her and he was threatening to kill her child. He had it coming.
Well, I'm not sure I'd classify homicide, even legally justifiable, as "nothing wrong." I think the show is going to quite some pains to show that Lawrence had not a single redeeming quality about him and that he was a genuine threat to Carly and to her daughter, but most of Salem doesn't know that, do they? I admit I haven't been paying super close attention to this storyline but I thought pretty much only Bo knows. Carly did admit to Vivian that she had killed Lawrence but Vivian is never going to agree it was ok for her to kill him. Which reminds me--Vivian had someone else take the rap for her, right? Why are the good hypocrites of Salem still throwing Lawrence's murder in her face?

It really never makes any sense what Salemites ignore/overlook and what they don't on this show. EJ ought to be Salem's biggest pariah, considering all his felonies, and yet he was allowed into Maggie Horton's home to express condolences and was even offered words of support by Hope. Sami has become so glittery and golden you have to avert your eyes. Everything crappy Melanie ever did has been swept under the convenient all-purpose rug of her shitty childhood, yet Stephanie's rape and her subsequent kidnapping at the hands of EJ and how that might have affected her--ignored. Chloe was bashed mercilessly on her return to Salem and blamed by one and all for getting Brady hooked on drugs, despite no evidence that it was her fault. I mean, it's all just crappy, plot-point writing, and yes, it's super annoying when one of your favorites (like in my case, Nicole) has to pay when others skate free or never have their pasts brought up.
But because AZ is so good, even without the help of writers, and with the writers blatantly pretending Sami is some innocent victim, and poor Ej is so maligned unfairly and victimized unfairly, I have more empathy and sympathy for Nicole than Sami and Ej combined.
Sami or rather some fans plays this beleaguered "Sami had a bad childhood' cuz Marlena was a bad mom." And it's laughable. Marlena was never my favorite but, in soap terms, hardly a bad mother. On the other hand, Nicole had an abusive father who was as bad as Billie's father and yet Nicole and Billie get trashed for any and everything.

I am thrilled the show is finally showing an abusived violent man not magically transformed into a romantic hero.
You are right, murder is never Ok. But what I saw was self defense, and the defense of a child.
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Paxton
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Sam09
Jan 18 2010, 12:02 PM
But because AZ is so good, even without the help of writers, and with the writers blatantly pretending Sami is some innocent victim, and poor Ej is so maligned unfairly and victimized unfairly, I have more empathy and sympathy for Nicole than Sami and Ej combined.
Sami or rather some fans plays this beleaguered "Sami had a bad childhood' cuz Marlena was a bad mom." And it's laughable. Marlena was never my favorite but, in soap terms, hardly a bad mother. On the other hand, Nicole had an abusive father who was as bad as Billie's father and yet Nicole and Billie get trashed for any and everything.

I am thrilled the show is finally showing an abusived violent man not magically transformed into a romantic hero.
You are right, murder is never Ok. But what I saw was self defense, and the defense of a child.
Trust me, I completely agree with everything you said. My point about Carly had more to do with the fact that I wasn't sure whether everybody in town who's judging her and being nasty knows how dangerous Lawrence was--I mean, they SHOULD, given the things he did even before he left town, but as far as what he's done specifically to Carly and her secret daughter, I don't think most people know that. I mean, obviously only a couple of people even know she has a daughter.

Now, when the truth comes out will everybody in Salem be understanding or will they still feel free to be the judgmental hypocrites that they usually are? That's the question--I assume they will be more understanding because Vivian is obviously going to make Carly and Melanie her victims, or try to. Also, I still don't get how, if somebody else took the rap for Lawrence's murder and all charges against Carly were dropped, people are still blaming Carly for it anyway. Either I missed something or the monkeys with the typewriters hoped we'd all forget.
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Sindacco
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Sam09
Jan 18 2010, 10:27 AM
lysie
Jan 18 2010, 09:44 AM
AlisonLou
Jan 18 2010, 07:20 AM
I just read the prevuze recap for tuesday and I'm appauled at the writers and their treatment of women and child birth on this show.
Spoiler: click to toggle
For me the show and it's writers have gone too far. This sl is turning me off this show. I DO NOT want to see things like this ever on a soap. I won't be watching this episode. If days haven't lost viewers they will after this episode.
Isn't his treatment of her kind of the point, though? If he were treating her the way women should be treated, that would change the story a bit.
For once, finally, DAYS is showing the truth. Men who are violent, as Lawrence was; men who rape; men who are criminals, thugs, felons who deal drugs; work for drug dealers, generally do not change.
The genre started this myth of the bad boy changing into a heroic savior a long time ago. Even back then, I was appalled. The myth that the love of a good woman changes a violent man into a saint is just that, a myth.

Romanticizing violent men has always turned me off, whether in the soaps, or in the movies. Showing the reality of abuse should be a good thing.

Showing truth is more painful for sure. Perpetuating a myth is more harmful.
And in real life it's most of the times the other way around. At first the men are nice and treat the women good but once they move in together the men show their true colors behind closed doors.
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karmakatch63


Sindacco
Jan 18 2010, 12:22 PM
Sam09
Jan 18 2010, 10:27 AM
lysie
Jan 18 2010, 09:44 AM
AlisonLou
Jan 18 2010, 07:20 AM
I just read the prevuze recap for tuesday and I'm appauled at the writers and their treatment of women and child birth on this show.
Spoiler: click to toggle
For me the show and it's writers have gone too far. This sl is turning me off this show. I DO NOT want to see things like this ever on a soap. I won't be watching this episode. If days haven't lost viewers they will after this episode.
Isn't his treatment of her kind of the point, though? If he were treating her the way women should be treated, that would change the story a bit.
For once, finally, DAYS is showing the truth. Men who are violent, as Lawrence was; men who rape; men who are criminals, thugs, felons who deal drugs; work for drug dealers, generally do not change.
The genre started this myth of the bad boy changing into a heroic savior a long time ago. Even back then, I was appalled. The myth that the love of a good woman changes a violent man into a saint is just that, a myth.

Romanticizing violent men has always turned me off, whether in the soaps, or in the movies. Showing the reality of abuse should be a good thing.

Showing truth is more painful for sure. Perpetuating a myth is more harmful.
And in real life it's most of the times the other way around. At first the men are nice and treat the women good but once they move in together the men show their true colors behind closed doors.
Yes, that happens too. But often when I was working with women's group (for abused women) I heard them say things like, "that should have been a clue..." Sometimes all of us see what we want to see. And, convince ourselves we did not see what we really saw. I do think the soaps too often made it seem like the adage "love calms the savage beast." The truth is that abusers male or female, usually have a lifetime of seeing that pattern of behavior as normal.
Now can it change? yes. There are no absolutes in real life. It's just not so often and so easy as the soaps write it......
just as woman do not get past rape so easily as they do on the soaps.
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Sindacco
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I do think the writers have a little double standard right now. I mean it's good that they are explaining how Lawrence treated Carly but in the same episode we can get scenes of Victor telling someone that Nicole tried to kill him. But the writers seem to have forgotten why Nicole tried to kill him. And that reason is that Victor treated Nicole the same way Lawrence treated Carly.
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karmakatch63


Paxton
Jan 18 2010, 12:07 PM
Sam09
Jan 18 2010, 12:02 PM
But because AZ is so good, even without the help of writers, and with the writers blatantly pretending Sami is some innocent victim, and poor Ej is so maligned unfairly and victimized unfairly, I have more empathy and sympathy for Nicole than Sami and Ej combined.
Sami or rather some fans plays this beleaguered "Sami had a bad childhood' cuz Marlena was a bad mom." And it's laughable. Marlena was never my favorite but, in soap terms, hardly a bad mother. On the other hand, Nicole had an abusive father who was as bad as Billie's father and yet Nicole and Billie get trashed for any and everything.

I am thrilled the show is finally showing an abusived violent man not magically transformed into a romantic hero.
You are right, murder is never Ok. But what I saw was self defense, and the defense of a child.
Trust me, I completely agree with everything you said. My point about Carly had more to do with the fact that I wasn't sure whether everybody in town who's judging her and being nasty knows how dangerous Lawrence was--I mean, they SHOULD, given the things he did even before he left town, but as far as what he's done specifically to Carly and her secret daughter, I don't think most people know that. I mean, obviously only a couple of people even know she has a daughter.

Now, when the truth comes out will everybody in Salem be understanding or will they still feel free to be the judgmental hypocrites that they usually are? That's the question--I assume they will be more understanding because Vivian is obviously going to make Carly and Melanie her victims, or try to. Also, I still don't get how, if somebody else took the rap for Lawrence's murder and all charges against Carly were dropped, people are still blaming Carly for it anyway. Either I missed something or the monkeys with the typewriters hoped we'd all forget.
Well, I remember Bo told Hope (and maybe someone else...Justin?) that Carly was being abused. That ought to be enough, knowing Lawrence's history, and what he did to Bo and Steve. As well, Viv's history ought to give them all pause.
She buried someone alive. That alone would have me out telling everyone, DO NOT allow women, small children and animals near her. Giving Viv the benefit of the doubt makes no sense.
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esp13
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Nothing about what I read in Prevuze today makes me root for Vivian's evil scheme to work any less. Of course, that has nothing to do with Carly. It has everything to do with Melanie.

As for Carly, Paxton makes a valid point. The good people of Salem don't know anything about what Carly did or didn't suffer while she was with Lawrence. What they know is that Carly freely left Bo and Salem behind to fly away with Lawrence. They certainly should know that Lawrence wasn't a good guy, but that knowledge is somewhat mitigated by the fact that, as far as they know, Carly willingly left with him and willingly stayed with him. Now she's back and, it seems, causing difficulties for Bo and Hope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the bad treatment Carly has been getting from people who should have been more supportive of her. I'm just saying that what they know about the situation and what we know is entirely different.

Beyond that, Paxton's bigger point is even more true. There is no rhyme or reason why some characters are forgiven all their sins and/or whitewashed repeatedly while others are viewed as evil incarnate for far lesser sins. Actually, there is a reason and it's called "because it works for this particular plot." It's extremely frustrating to see your favorite character routinely bashed for his or her sins, while others are given free passes for everything.
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karmakatch63


Sindacco
Jan 18 2010, 12:38 PM
I do think the writers have a little double standard right now. I mean it's good that they are explaining how Lawrence treated Carly but in the same episode we can get scenes of Victor telling someone that Nicole tried to kill him. But the writers seem to have forgotten why Nicole tried to kill him. And that reason is that Victor treated Nicole the same way Lawrence treated Carly.
I agree. I have to laugh every time Victor tries to pretend he was Nicole's victim. That's a hoot. I hope with Carly's abuse coming out, it gives writers the chance to showcase why Nicole is so needy and makes such bad choices in men. They could have done it with Billie too instead of making her the "interloper" as couple fans like to call any woman near the man in their supercouple. (funny how the men in triangles get a pass from the couple fans...mainly because couple fans have mostly been Hope fans, Marlena fans, etc......).

Anyway, it might be interesting for writers to explore the double standard in Salem. My dream scene is having someone call out Victor when he says stuff like that (Brady did a little but no one reminds Vic of what he has done to other people). Ditto for the other.
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lysie


Sindacco
Jan 18 2010, 12:38 PM
I do think the writers have a little double standard right now. I mean it's good that they are explaining how Lawrence treated Carly but in the same episode we can get scenes of Victor telling someone that Nicole tried to kill him. But the writers seem to have forgotten why Nicole tried to kill him. And that reason is that Victor treated Nicole the same way Lawrence treated Carly.
YES! And this is why Victor's scenes drive me crazy.
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six
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Sindacco
Jan 18 2010, 12:38 PM
I do think the writers have a little double standard right now. I mean it's good that they are explaining how Lawrence treated Carly but in the same episode we can get scenes of Victor telling someone that Nicole tried to kill him. But the writers seem to have forgotten why Nicole tried to kill him. And that reason is that Victor treated Nicole the same way Lawrence treated Carly.
I could see that if people were giving Victor sympathy for what happened with Nicole, but with the exception of Vivian, and Hope, to some extent, everyone sees Victor as a delusional misogynist, which is exactly what he is.
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dc cubs
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esp13
Jan 18 2010, 12:47 PM
Nothing about what I read in Prevuze today makes me root for Vivian's evil scheme to work any less. Of course, that has nothing to do with Carly. It has everything to do with Melanie.

As for Carly, Paxton makes a valid point. The good people of Salem don't know anything about what Carly did or didn't suffer while she was with Lawrence. What they know is that Carly freely left Bo and Salem behind to fly away with Lawrence. They certainly should know that Lawrence wasn't a good guy, but that knowledge is somewhat mitigated by the fact that, as far as they know, Carly willingly left with him and willingly stayed with him. Now she's back and, it seems, causing difficulties for Bo and Hope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the bad treatment Carly has been getting from people who should have been more supportive of her. I'm just saying that what they know about the situation and what we know is entirely different.

Beyond that, Paxton's bigger point is even more true. There is no rhyme or reason why some characters are forgiven all their sins and/or whitewashed repeatedly while others are viewed as evil incarnate for far lesser sins. Actually, there is a reason and it's called "because it works for this particular plot." It's extremely frustrating to see your favorite character routinely bashed for his or her sins, while others are given free passes for everything.
I agree that Carly leaving Salem with Lawrence all those years ago was a HUGE mistake. However, most peeps seem to think this was all on Carly. If I remember correctly as soon as Carly got her memory back she went to see Bo. They talked and even kissed. They tried to take things further but BOTH agreed that too much had happened.

It was a mutual decision on both their points. Bo and Billie had grown closer while Carly was presumed dead. Things were strained with Bo and Carly before she was buried alive. Bo quickly moved on with Billie and Carly left with Lawrence. So the blame for Bo and Carly's breakup years ago should not be assigned all to Carly.

Was it a plausible exit for Carly and Lawrence? No, but that had more to do with behind the scenes issues than anything else.
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esp13
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I wasn't intending to make it sound like it was all Carly's fault for the breakup with Bo. Again, I was just talking about the perspective of other characters in Salem, not the audience. The more important port was that Carly left freely with Lawrence and, therefore, freely left Bo behind (even if it was a mutual decision).
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karmakatch63


esp13
Jan 18 2010, 12:47 PM
Nothing about what I read in Prevuze today makes me root for Vivian's evil scheme to work any less. Of course, that has nothing to do with Carly. It has everything to do with Melanie.

As for Carly, Paxton makes a valid point. The good people of Salem don't know anything about what Carly did or didn't suffer while she was with Lawrence. What they know is that Carly freely left Bo and Salem behind to fly away with Lawrence. They certainly should know that Lawrence wasn't a good guy, but that knowledge is somewhat mitigated by the fact that, as far as they know, Carly willingly left with him and willingly stayed with him. Now she's back and, it seems, causing difficulties for Bo and Hope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the bad treatment Carly has been getting from people who should have been more supportive of her. I'm just saying that what they know about the situation and what we know is entirely different.

Beyond that, Paxton's bigger point is even more true. There is no rhyme or reason why some characters are forgiven all their sins and/or whitewashed repeatedly while others are viewed as evil incarnate for far lesser sins. Actually, there is a reason and it's called "because it works for this particular plot." It's extremely frustrating to see your favorite character routinely bashed for his or her sins, while others are given free passes for everything.



We all get that it's all about plot points....who is forgiven and who is not. Sometimes it is so obvious and nonsensical but we get past it. No one expects total reality. In real life, after all the things Steve did to Bo and his family to exact revenge, from trying to kill Bo and Hope, to working for Vic to destroy the fishermen on the docks, there is no way a family person like Kayla would have anything to do with "Patch." But the chemistry was there, actors had input and PR asked them to keep SN on to give Bo something more to do than rescue Hope every five minutes, I suspect. The actors had talent and it went on. After all, the genre had not yet gotten into a pattern of romanticizing EVERY felon.

But in this case, the residents of Salem just look stupid. These are supposed to be educated people. All women married to abusers, in a sense "freely chose" to be with them when they said yes to marriage. Most women don't choose to marry an abuser because they like being abused. Most believe he will change....or refuse to see his violent side will affect them.
It is, sadly, a pretty common phenomenon.
What makes me angry is the selective memory. They can remember that Carly chose to go with Lawrence but they cannot remember that Viv buried the woman alive? Or can't remember that Lawrence basically told Carly he was leaving with the son she had kidnapped from her and she had not seen since his birth to 10 years old, whether she went or not, and that probably most women would do anything to be reunited with their child? None of them can think to ask Bo? None of them remember that Vic tried to kill Bo, almost killed Carly? None of them remember that Carly saved Bo, saved ShawnD and saved Caroline.

DA PLOT, I get. But it just makes Salemites look even more stupid than usual, and gives them an unappealing, hypocritical self righteousness. Granted, that part is often frowned on by the Dimeras and their fans, but seriously, the Dimeras did do horrid things to many Salemits (shootings, kidnappings, torture). Carly committed the crime of loving Bo, and coming to him for help because she trusts him. and egads "he's married". Is it a law in Salem that married people are not allowed to help anyone but their spouse or family????
[/quote]
Edited by karmakatch63, Jan 18 2010, 01:23 PM.
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Eric83
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"Relax nobody's having sex.... at least not yet"

Ugh Melanie is annoying as hell.
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Kenny
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Melanie's over-the-top anger towards Carly isn't amusing in the least. It's just annoying. And Molly Burnett gets on my nerves with her weird facial expressions and hand gestures.
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Matt
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Classic Soap Fan

note to TPTB: Less Alison Sweeney, more Suzanne Rogers. thank you.
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esp13
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I think we're talking at cross-purposes here because I don't disagree with a word you've said. My point was simply that it's hardly limited to Carly. Carly is not being thrown under the bus any more or any less than other characters have been over the last couple of years. Hell, they turned Hope into SuperFancyJudgmentalFace just to make sure there was a big rift in Bo and Hope's marriage before Carly hit town. Justin's been turned into Hope's suitor without more than a couple of mentions of the apparent end of his marriage with Adrienne. Stephanie's been thrown under the bus more times than I can count to make Melanie look better. Nicole and Chloe have both done their time as well. In fact, it's more croweded under that damn bus than it is in Downtown Europe.

And this isn't about real life or soap life, it's about crappy writing. Sure, maybe nobody would have ever forgiven Steve in the real world, but the writers didn't just decide to whitewash his past when they decided to keep the character. They spent months showing the gradual redemption of the character. They don't do that anymore.
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Kenny
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This Sydnapping saga is SO. FUCKING. BORING. I just don't care anymore. It should've ended on Christmas Eve with a miraculous reunion on the pier. Prolonging it like this just wasn't worth it.
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