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Days recasts Bill Horton for Frances Reid tribute
Topic Started: Apr 23 2010, 09:26 AM (4,357 Views)
heartsaver


PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 12:53 PM
heartsaver
Apr 23 2010, 12:41 PM
Ellie
Apr 23 2010, 12:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I completely agree. It would have made more sense to have Bill visit Alice offscreen and be there when she passed away. They could explain away his absence at the funeral by saying that Alice had told him to go back to Africa to help his patients. You're bringing back a lot of actors who have worked with Frances and with each other over the years. And then you're adding a complete newcomer to the show and pretending that he has that same history. Bad idea.

Excellent point about Mickey's death. TPTB obviously knew Frances was very ill and that they would soon be doing a tribute to Alice Horton. I don't know if John Clarke would have been physically up for a brief return but how wonderful would it have been to have seen him come back to say goodbye to Alice.
John Clarke was never going to come back. SR even mentioned a few months before Mickey died onscreen that John had a stroke.

The show needed to handle the Mickey situation. They had no idea Frances would pass. She was very ill for a long time. You can't put something off based on that unless you were told a timetable on when she would pass and I'm sure they weren't. The Mickey situation pretty much worked out better for them. They would've had to recast him too for this and at least now they won't have any problem with Mickey flashbacks since the show started showing pictures and flashbacks of John Clarke's Mickey right before they killed him. In a way, the show actually helped themselves, although I'm sure they don't like the idea of Mickey and Alice being gone in the same year. It's a bit much but, again, unless someone is psychic or they were told by someone how long she had left, they could have no way planned accordingly.
Suzanne also said that he was doing okay after the stroke. I have no idea about John Clarke's present physical condition but the fact that he had a stroke would not automatically preclude him from being able to make a return for a very brief stint. It would depend on how serious his stroke was.

The notion that the show had no idea Frances would pass is ridiculous. She was in her mid-nineties and clearly in badly failing health.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

Ellie
Apr 23 2010, 01:09 PM
PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 12:45 PM
Viewers won't identify with most of the returns so why d anything then? Seriously, there are some viewers out there that wouldn't even identify with John and Marlena if you brought them back. Does that mean you don't do it? This tribute is for Frances Reid and for longtime fans to remember her and have closure. This is why I wouldn't be surprised if ratings dropped. I'm sure many viewers won't care about this. It will just be the die hard fans and longtime fans (and former fans) that will but that doesn't mean you shy away from it. This has to be done and it has to be done right.
What? Let's say 100 people are watching the show, and let's say Drake and Deidre were back. How many people would know them as J&M? Let's say 85. How many people will know John Martin as Bill Horton? 0.

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Bringing up Mickey's death isn't the same. Days made the decision to kill him off after years of first recasting the role and then trying to keep him around without an actor. It didn't work. Yes, they knew Frances was ill. Her health had been declining for years but there was no way of knowing she would pass away within a month of Mickey's death onscreen. You can't prepare for that and you shouldn't write with that in mind. I'm sure everyone was still hopeful she would fight and still be around. Afterall, Frances had fought illness for years and quite valiantly. In a way, it's probably a good thing that they killed Mickey. What would they do now? They would have to recast like they did with Bill.
No, I bet John Clarke would be able to make a brief appearance. Frances appeared for years in poor health. Days killed Mickey because they were looking for a quick and easy ratings boost, and they didn't get it. They didn't care about the character then, just as they don't care enough about Bill Horton to use flashbacks now.

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I'm concerned about flashbacks too but other shows have done it despite recasts. I'm actually more worried about flashbacks associated with other characters more then I am with Bill. There isn't really a whole lot of Bill/Alice ones, at least not compared to some of the other characters. I still want to see some though. All I know is it's more important he will be present then the flashback issue. If Bill were handled like Tommy for the past twenty or so years, I would get behind the notion that he isn't needed. However, for longtime fans, he is needed, even with a new face. Jennifer, Lucas, Laura, Mike, and Marie will all be around and you expect longtime fans to buy Bill Horton not being there for his mother's funeral? That doesn't fly. Just because the show messed up in the past and made excuses doesn't mean you don't go all out now when the matriarch of the show dies. This has to be handled to a high level. No excuses.
Where we disagree is that I see this as another example of "messing up". You say here that "for longtime fans, he is needed', yet you're willing to dismiss the idea of John and Marlena above because of all the new viewers. Well, which is it? Days kills Mickey when John Clarke is thankfully very much alive, yet they forget about Bill Horton when his portrayer(s) sadly died. I don't think they have anyone's best interest in mind with these quick-and-easy decisions. The right way to preserve the show's integrity is to use flashbacks with the original actors. I can't see them doing that if another actor appears in the present, though I hope I'm wrong.

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And the suggestion that they don't care...if they didn't care why would they do this? Corday's devoting alot of time to this. He thought of Frances like a mother. This hit him and the cast hard. It matters to them. He's bringing back several characters for more then just an episode or two. That is how your remark about this being a careless, quick decision is ridiculous. He mentioned back in February that they were deciding what to do about Bill. They clearly carefully planned all this. I get that you and others are jaded and I can totally understand questioning the actor being brought on (although he probably is no more miscast then JLB and RC) but acting like the show is just shoddily throwing this together and acting like this is a bad decision is a notion that I can't even see logic in.
What you're basically saying is that I should give Corday a free pass because this is Frances. I'm sorry, but I can't. I do give him credit for asking back who he has, but even with that, I see the show making selfish decisions. Some of what they "clearly carefully planned" was planned quite poorly imo, and I think I have a right to express that here.

To your first point, all I was saying was that some would view John and Marlena the same as they would John Martin. You have to remember that Days probably picked up new fans in the past year. Those fans may not know who the hell John and Marlena are and that was my point. Some won't know who any of these returning characters are. That kind of dovetails into the Mickey story, which I feel was handled the way it was because they knew most of the viewers watching wouldn't care nor did they anticipate alot of fans coming back to see the death of Mickey. That is unlike Frances Reid, who passed away in real life and was the matriarch. There was alot more pressure on the show to do right by her memorial because the spotlight will be on them. Alice was the heart and soul of the show. She was actively involved in the lives of so many of Days most popular characters so she is one long-time fans will come back to see remembered. Now, I don't think the ratings will show that but I do think those fans will watch where they didn't with Mickey, who wasn't exactly an active figure in the lives of many characters unless he was as a lawyer in the mid-late 90's.

Secondly, if John Clarke could've made an appearance, he would've. He chose to retire and I'm sure the show tried to get him back after the failed recasts. If anything, Days using Frances for as long as they were able proves that if John was willing, they would've had him make appearances. I had alot of issues with Mickey's death and expressed them but it was in no way done just for ratings. They had to do something about the character and they did. My issue is the show didn't handle it as well as it should've and I noted why above. Alice's death is sort of on a different level then Mickey's, even if both were original characters. That comes off a bit disrespectful and that is not my intention but I do believe it's true that Alice and Frances Reid carry a bit more weight with fans and with people that don't even watch the show who may tune in to see the sendoff.

To your third point, I was not dismissing the idea of John and Marlena returning. I wish at least Marlena was coming for this. My point was that this is being done for long-time fans so you bring back whoever and do whatever you have to in an effort to make the tribute the best it can be. Again, my point was that for many current viewers, they have about the same connection with characters like John and Marlena as they do John Martin in the role of Bill. Lucas will probably be the only returning character (and maybe Melissa since she returned briefly in January and new viewers were introduced to her) that current viewers will feel like paying attention to, at least at the start.

And I'm not saying give him a free pass. What I am saying is I can't understand how this can be painted as a bad decision. The show has been planning this for months. It's brought back a number of characters. It's clearly making an effort. It shouldn't prevent them from using flashbacks. If it does, it's because of their own stupidity and you better believe I won't be happy if that happens. I think people have the right to bash it if the tribute is not up to par. However, a decision like this which could very well ensure the tribute is complete is not one I think should get the negative reaction it's getting from some. I can see being a bit confused by it or just simply questioning it but bashing it outright and calling it a careless decision? That is what I don't get and find to be difficult claim.
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PhoenixRising05
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GET EM STEPH!!

heartsaver
Apr 23 2010, 01:14 PM
PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 12:53 PM
heartsaver
Apr 23 2010, 12:41 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
John Clarke was never going to come back. SR even mentioned a few months before Mickey died onscreen that John had a stroke.

The show needed to handle the Mickey situation. They had no idea Frances would pass. She was very ill for a long time. You can't put something off based on that unless you were told a timetable on when she would pass and I'm sure they weren't. The Mickey situation pretty much worked out better for them. They would've had to recast him too for this and at least now they won't have any problem with Mickey flashbacks since the show started showing pictures and flashbacks of John Clarke's Mickey right before they killed him. In a way, the show actually helped themselves, although I'm sure they don't like the idea of Mickey and Alice being gone in the same year. It's a bit much but, again, unless someone is psychic or they were told by someone how long she had left, they could have no way planned accordingly.
Suzanne also said that he was doing okay after the stroke. I have no idea about John Clarke's present physical condition but the fact that he had a stroke would not automatically preclude him from being able to make a return for a very brief stint. It would depend on how serious his stroke was.

The notion that the show had no idea Frances would pass is ridiculous. She was in her mid-nineties and clearly in badly failing health.
Of course they knew it would happen but they didn't know when? Even if they knew it could be soon, soon could mean 6 months or a years. How often are people told they have 2 months and they end up living two years or more.

I won't disagree that the show should've just killed Mickey off when John Clarke retired. They botched that and THAT was poor planning. No one should've played that role. However, I can't argue with the decision to finally end the character's life when they did it. It had gotten ridiculous. You also have to remember too that they shot Mickey's death in NOVEMBER. Frances died in February, when they were already well into taping March's episodes. Frances may have been ill but maybe she really become worse after they already filmed it.
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Ellie


PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 01:31 PM
To your first point, all I was saying was that some would view John and Marlena the same as they would John Martin.
I completely disagree, and I said why in my last post. John Martin has never been on as Bill Horton. John and Marlena were on 23 years, Marlena for over 30.

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Secondly, if John Clarke could've made an appearance, he would've. He chose to retire and I'm sure the show tried to get him back after the failed recasts.
Is that a guess? My guess is that if he'd been asked to come back for this show, he would have done everything in his power to be there. After the failed recasts, what they chose to do was kill the character. I'm sure John Clarke would have much rather returned for a Frances tribute than for his character's own funeral.

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To your third point, I was not dismissing the idea of John and Marlena returning. I wish at least Marlena was coming for this.
Me too! But unfortunately Corday didn't ask her because he has a stick up his @ss. Guess not all his decisions are motivated by the fact that Frances was like a mother to him.

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My point was that this is being done for long-time fans so you bring back whoever and do whatever you have to in an effort to make the tribute the best it can be.
Agree. Where we disagree is, I don't think they've done that. They have put in an effort, but not 100% at all.

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What I am saying is I can't understand how this can be painted as a bad decision.
I know you and I disagree on a lot (which is fine!), but I've tried a few times to explain why I think this is a careless decision. Lack of flashbacks, viewer 'disorientation', easy ability to 'write out' the character, and poor casting. I'm sorry if you don't understand what I'm saying, though of course I respect the fact that you might disagree.
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Dr. Chip


I think a distinction can be made between honoring Frances Reid and honoring the character of Alice Horton. While there is some overlap, and some of the returning actors will have Frances on their minds when they're playing their parts, this funeral is about Alice and not Frances. The Frances Reid memorial is in the past; Deidre Hall was there because she adored Frances. She probably won't make the TV funeral because she's off the show, it was a painful parting, and it would be hard for her to make a cameo appearance and then disappear; it would also be hard for Ken to ask her to do this after firing her the way he did.

A recast Bill has nothing to do with honoring Frances Reid, but Bill Horton is a very important character to Alice, Laura, Jennifer, Mike, Lucas, and others. I think the right decision was made.

But there have been comments made about Jason Cook being allowed to miss a day of "General Hospital" or Brandon Beemer being excused for a few days from "The Bold and the Beautiful" to honor a fictional character. I don't see that happening. This is business, and Alice is a beloved fictional character. I don't think this funeral is so much about honoring Frances, who most of us never knew, as it is about honoring Alice, who was like a grandmother to all of us.

I remember Jean Stapleton saying that Norman Lear had a hard time when she wanted to leave "Archie Bunker's Place" and let the character of Edith die. She told him, "She's only fiction." His response: "Not to me." Maybe it's hard to think of Alice Horton as fiction because she was just so real.
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Ellie


Dr. Chip
Apr 23 2010, 02:06 PM
I think a distinction can be made between honoring Frances Reid and honoring the character of Alice Horton. While there is some overlap, and some of the returning actors will have Frances on their minds when they're playing their parts, this funeral is about Alice and not Frances. The Frances Reid memorial is in the past; Deidre Hall was there because she adored Frances. She probably won't make the TV funeral because she's off the show, it was a painful parting, and it would be hard for her to make a cameo appearance and then disappear; it would also be hard for Ken to ask her to do this after firing her the way he did.

A recast Bill has nothing to do with honoring Frances Reid, but Bill Horton is a very important character to Alice, Laura, Jennifer, Mike, Lucas, and others. I think the right decision was made.

But there have been comments made about Jason Cook being allowed to miss a day of "General Hospital" or Brandon Beemer being excused for a few days from "The Bold and the Beautiful" to honor a fictional character. I don't see that happening. This is business, and Alice is a beloved fictional character. I don't think this funeral is so much about honoring Frances, who most of us never knew, as it is about honoring Alice, who was like a grandmother to all of us.

I remember Jean Stapleton saying that Norman Lear had a hard time when she wanted to leave "Archie Bunker's Place" and let the character of Edith die. She told him, "She's only fiction." His response: "Not to me." Maybe it's hard to think of Alice Horton as fiction because she was just so real.
Great post, Chip, and while I disagree with a few of your points, they are very well taken. Regarding Beemer/Cook and even Deidre, the issue I have is that the fictional characters were very important to "Alice Horton" as well. If we're staying purely within the fictional realm, then wouldn't "Marlena" be there? Wouldn't "Shawn D" drop everything and fly across the world for his beloved Gran?

As for Bill, my concern then, using your framework, would be flashbacks. Are they sacrificing years and years of fictional stories just to have one show with "Bill" there? I don't think that's the right tradeoff to make.
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lysie
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Dr. Chip
Apr 23 2010, 02:06 PM
I think a distinction can be made between honoring Frances Reid and honoring the character of Alice Horton. While there is some overlap, and some of the returning actors will have Frances on their minds when they're playing their parts, this funeral is about Alice and not Frances. The Frances Reid memorial is in the past; Deidre Hall was there because she adored Frances. She probably won't make the TV funeral because she's off the show, it was a painful parting, and it would be hard for her to make a cameo appearance and then disappear; it would also be hard for Ken to ask her to do this after firing her the way he did.

A recast Bill has nothing to do with honoring Frances Reid, but Bill Horton is a very important character to Alice, Laura, Jennifer, Mike, Lucas, and others. I think the right decision was made.

But there have been comments made about Jason Cook being allowed to miss a day of "General Hospital" or Brandon Beemer being excused for a few days from "The Bold and the Beautiful" to honor a fictional character. I don't see that happening. This is business, and Alice is a beloved fictional character. I don't think this funeral is so much about honoring Frances, who most of us never knew, as it is about honoring Alice, who was like a grandmother to all of us.

I remember Jean Stapleton saying that Norman Lear had a hard time when she wanted to leave "Archie Bunker's Place" and let the character of Edith die. She told him, "She's only fiction." His response: "Not to me." Maybe it's hard to think of Alice Horton as fiction because she was just so real.
There is a distinction between Frances/Alice. Unfortunately, Marlena and Alice had a close relationship, so I will not believe that Marlena wouldn't be there - I don't care about the show's politics and who has a stick lodged where. Same with Shawn D (moreso actually). However, I am still glad that they're bringing back all that they are, and I don't mind the Bill recast...yet. I may start minding it when he shows up and looks out of place, though.
Edited by lysie, Apr 23 2010, 02:14 PM.
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Dr. Chip


You both make valid points about Marlena. She and Alice were so close, they were neighbors, they shared Christmases together, and they were always in each other's business. :-) It is a real shame that she won't be there.

My disagreement was with comments saying that by doing this or that, you're not honoring Frances.
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Ellie


Dr. Chip
Apr 23 2010, 02:40 PM
You both make valid points about Marlena. She and Alice were so close, they were neighbors, they shared Christmases together, and they were always in each other's business. :-) It is a real shame that she won't be there.
haha yes, they really were in each other's business - and I agree!

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My disagreement was with comments saying that by doing this or that, you're not honoring Frances.
Got it - thanks for clarifying!
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Drew
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PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 01:00 PM
Drew
Apr 23 2010, 12:50 PM
PhoenixRising05
Apr 23 2010, 11:44 AM

it's funny that even when Days does something right some have to question or bash. How can a decision like this be bashed? It boggles my mind.
Because John Martin and his Bill have no connection to Francis Reid and shouldnt be taking up space in a tribute when there are others they should be calling.
The actors that played Bill passed away. What else can they do? If they left it alone and said he was "there" and never showed him, people would be pissed. If they left him in Africa, people would be pissed. Now, they do something about it and people are pissed. The show truly is damned if they do and damned if they don't and people wonder why I defend it as much as I do LOL.
Hardly. The character of Bill is so unimportant at this point, being gone for 20 years with all his children middle aged. He doesnt even need to be mentioned, but a simple african illness would have done the job if need be.

As for the other Mikes and Lauras, they atleast worked with Francis. And RC had alot of nice scenes with her that I can remember.
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Jason47
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There was a fourth Bill that I didn't find out about until watching episodes from 1987. He didn't even make the "Days" history books. But actor Peter White, who is still alive, appeared for two episodes as Bill while Christopher Stone was ill.
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Kenny
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I like this guy. He's a pretty good actor.

I hope we get a Kate/Bill/Laura/Lucas/Jennifer scene. Toss in Mike for good measure.
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dooldooldool


Since the two major "Bills" have both passed, I can live with a brief recast. My suspicion is that this actor is merely a placeholder. We know that Jamie Lyn Bauer is returning and "Laura" needs a companion. We know that Melissa Reeves, Roark Kritchlow, and Bryan Datillo are returning, and they all need "their father" to complete the moment.

I suspect we will get little more than day-player action from this New Bill. He probably will have more lines than a typical "under-five", but I wouldn't expect lengthy emotional scenes of angst and memories. He will sit beside Laura, embrace his children, and make a few comments about his Life in Africa.

Also, all this frenzy about flashbacks is sure to blow up in our faces. I doubt we will see more than a few snippet or two for each character, and there's no reason that "Bill" and "Alice" even have to share a clip. "Bill" can just recall an "Alice Moment", whether he appeared with her onscreen or not (ie "I remember Dad telling me about the time when Mom....blah, blah, blah.)

There doesn't seem to be any intention to keep "Bill's Family" (Bill/Laura/Jennifer/Mike/Lucas) in Salem for anything but the bare minimum.
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lysie
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dooldooldool
Apr 23 2010, 03:59 PM
Since the two major "Bills" have both passed, I can live with a brief recast. My suspicion is that this actor is merely a placeholder. We know that Jamie Lyn Bauer is returning and "Laura" needs a companion. We know that Melissa Reeves, Roark Kritchlow, and Bryan Datillo are returning, and they all need "their father" to complete the moment.

I suspect we will get little more than day-player action from this New Bill. He probably will have more lines than a typical "under-five", but I wouldn't expect lengthy emotional scenes of angst and memories. He will sit beside Laura, embrace his children, and make a few comments about his Life in Africa.

Also, all this frenzy about flashbacks is sure to blow up in our faces. I doubt we will see more than a few snippet or two for each character, and there's no reason that "Bill" and "Alice" even have to share a clip. "Bill" can just recall an "Alice Moment", whether he appeared with her onscreen or not (ie "I remember Dad telling me about the time when Mom....blah, blah, blah.)

There doesn't seem to be any intention to keep "Bill's Family" (Bill/Laura/Jennifer/Mike/Lucas) in Salem for anything but the bare minimum.
"I remember the time when my face looked different that Mom and I talked about my relationship with Laura" That's what I'm hoping for.

And just for good measure I'm also hoping for this from Roman..."I remember when I used to look like Alex North, and Mrs. H helped me get out of jail with some doughnuts." Then from Calliope "Then there was the time you looked like John and she comforted you while Marlena was in a coma." "Actually, that was John." "How did we mix you two up? You're much shorter." Roll clips.
Edited by lysie, Apr 23 2010, 04:10 PM.
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JSE
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Look at this way. At least they're trying. And Bill, even a recast Bill, makes a heck of a lot more sense than Shane. Why is Shane coming back?
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~bl~
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They could use a scene of Bill and Alice in which we see Alice talking to Bill and not see him in the clip. Something like that must exist in the archives.
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ladyofthelake
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Professor-in-training

JSE
Apr 23 2010, 08:22 PM
Look at this way. At least they're trying. And Bill, even a recast Bill, makes a heck of a lot more sense than Shane. Why is Shane coming back?
Because they need a guy with a British accent for those of us extremely burned out with Elvis Dimera? Not to mention, Shane was the ORIGINAL hot Brit on Days. As well as Charles Shaunnessy being one HELL of an actor. I'm extremely happy he's coming back, and he can fit well into an ISA/FBI blend.
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IMissAremid
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After all... tomorrow is another day!

lysie
Apr 23 2010, 09:50 AM
IMissAremid
Apr 23 2010, 09:43 AM
Wow.

Does that just leave Tommy, Shawn D, the Bannings, the Fallons and Hope's brother out of the Horton mix?
Just? LOL. That was kind of a long list!
Ha. Well I started out making the post thinking of just Tommy and Shawn D and then I realized there were other Hortons out there. Probably some I've even forgotten. Oh well. It's still way more Hortons on the show than have been around in years.

I hope we get Doug singing a round of "Always" as part of the memorial.

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IMissAremid
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After all... tomorrow is another day!

Kevc1980
Apr 23 2010, 12:11 PM
Amello
Apr 23 2010, 11:33 AM
Kevc1980
Apr 23 2010, 11:32 AM
Great news. It will be nice to see a Bill Horton again. Wow Lucas will get to meet his father.
Lucas HAS met his father. Albeit not for very long, but ...
Has he met him onscreen? I don't remember that.
Lucas has met Bill. Or at least "a" Bill. He was there for Laura's reveal that Lucas was Kate's son with Bill.

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Fafokahw
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I loved Deborah Adair as Kate, love Lauren Koslow too, those were the DAYS
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