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Thursday January 26th Daily Discussion
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Topic Started: Jan 25 2012, 02:36 PM (12,323 Views)
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AHM
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Jan 27 2012, 07:23 PM
Post #161
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^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHMrcF6rOhk
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Dreamer
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Jan 28 2012, 12:29 AM
Post #162
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Gone, But Not Forgotten!
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After rewatching the clips, It came to me, that Jack not only needs personal therapy sessions with Marlena, but also needs this type of support group to help him deal with his PTSD. IT was interesting to hear Paco say he wakes up each night, in a sweat and sees the faces of his unit membes,and that his wife wants to talk about it, but he can't, so they just live with it. Same for Mike who talks about the session as the only place to discuss it, outside of this, it is not something you can just bring up or discuss at a bar, etc. With all this said, it is like Jennifer is not entitled to be privy of what Jack went through, almost like it is a secret club. She would not be able to understand what happened to him, how he feels, what he saw, what he is living with. This is not an excuse for her poor treatment of Jack, but gives her a pass on getting involved in his treatment. I see now, that Jack needs to deal with it, and learn to move on with his life. I liked how he admits that he was/is unable to do this, which makes sense for his action of the past few months. I think Jack will give Jen credit for telling him to fix his life and that she was right in her not being able to help himm but gets failing marks for judging him and not being there to see him through it. I find this to be the saddest part. I want Jack to be happy again and to see him smile. I am so interested in how this is going to affect his character moving forward, I can't see TPTB being able to sweep this issue of JACK'S under the rug, anytime soon.
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lysie
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Jan 28 2012, 12:32 AM
Post #163
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- esp13
- Jan 27 2012, 10:24 AM
- lysie
- Jan 27 2012, 10:21 AM
- esp13
- Jan 27 2012, 10:13 AM
- Ellie
- Jan 27 2012, 10:09 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Good to know. Thanks, Ellie.
Besides...Marlena was dead when that happened.
I wasn't the one who suggested that was part of what she was referring to. Somebody else suggested it. I just took exception to the idea. But when has being dead ever stopped anyone in Salem from knowing about something. ;) LMAO. I know, and I agree.
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Romancer66
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Jan 28 2012, 12:50 AM
Post #164
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- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 12:29 AM
After rewatching the clips, It came to me, that Jack not only needs personal therapy sessions with Marlena, but also needs this type of support group to help him deal with his PTSD. IT was interesting to hear Paco say he wakes up each night, in a sweat and sees the faces of his unit membes,and that his wife wants to talk about it, but he can't, so they just live with it. Same for Mike who talks about the session as the only place to discuss it, outside of this, it is not something you can just bring up or discuss at a bar, etc. With all this said, it is like Jennifer is not entitled to be privy of what Jack went through, almost like it is a secret club. She would not be able to understand what happened to him, how he feels, what he saw, what he is living with. This is not an excuse for her poor treatment of Jack, but gives her a pass on getting involved in his treatment. I see now, that Jack needs to deal with it, and learn to move on with his life. I liked how he admits that he was/is unable to do this, which makes sense for his action of the past few months. I think Jack will give Jen credit for telling him to fix his life and that she was right in her not being able to help himm but gets failing marks for judging him and not being there to see him through it. I find this to be the saddest part. I want Jack to be happy again and to see him smile. I am so interested in how this is going to affect his character moving forward, I can't see TPTB being able to sweep this issue of JACK'S under the rug, anytime soon. Thing is, Paco's wife wants to help him. She wants to be involved. She's willing to listen, no matter how horrible it gets. Paco may not want to inflict what he's experienced on her, but that doesn't change the fact that his wife wants to be part of his recovery process. She's there for him.
Jennifer hasn't been there for Jack since the cabin scenes, and she's made it painfully clear that she has no intention of being there. She's either callous and rejecting--"I'm not the person who can fix you . . . I want a happy man, and you are not that man"--or clueless and superficial--"You should talk to Marlena, so you can get closure." And her indifference becomes more marked every time we see Jack in sessions with Marlena or, just now, with the vets. How can anyone but the most ardent Jennifer apologist defend her coldness and total lack of involvement while the man she's shared her life for 20 years is going through hell? Seems to me if Jack can stand to live through his experiences, then she can stand hearing about them. Instead, she bitches him out and pushes him onto a therapist instead, then doubtless pats herself on the back for even bothering to do that much for her "mess" of an ex.
This needs to become an issue between J&J. Because how can he ever trust her to be there for him when he needs her, based on the way she's behaving now?
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Harcourt
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Jan 28 2012, 05:08 AM
Post #165
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- Dreamer
- Jan 26 2012, 12:42 PM
Does anybody think Jack and Pat are going to be an item? his support, her support, outside the group? What vibes are you seeing? Strange that she had to make a separate entrance, from the group already there, (running late) is that suppose to be an obvious clue? I hope it's a clue. They did seem to emphasize her late appearance. She and Jack stood there together, the music started playing, and then they cut to commercial. On any other show, that would mean something.
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Harcourt
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Jan 28 2012, 06:09 AM
Post #166
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- JDeveraux_91
- Jan 26 2012, 05:12 PM
- MyHappyEnding
- Jan 26 2012, 04:53 PM
Simply put...this episode broke.my.heart. When Jack said "It doesn't feel like home." I wanted to find Jennifer and shake her into submission.
That's funny because when Jack said that I wanted to find Jennifer and kick the shit out of her ... Me too! :wave:
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Harcourt
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Jan 28 2012, 07:05 AM
Post #167
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- sals4
- Jan 27 2012, 02:37 PM
- happy
- Jan 27 2012, 01:14 AM
I FINALLY got to see the scenes!!!! I don't need to repeat what everyone else has said, so I will try to share some other thoughts. I thought Culliton did a really great job! I was impressed that he was able to write distinctive characters for the therapy session - and they each had their own arc during the episode. You got a sense of them as a group, and how they individually reacted to the new member - Jack. And the series of hugs at the end was beautiful and perfect. Loved MA's acting choices, like the slow shredding of his paper cup, jumping at Paco's touch, etc. But I also want to give KUDOS to Deidre Hall! She and Matt Ashford work so well together, even though they have very different acting styles and characters. Deidre didn't have many lines - but she is amazing with her reactions!! Completely grounded, listening without condescending - simple, elegant and strong. She just exudes warmth and compassion. I really love the friendship that is developing between Jack and Marlena. But I don't think I see Marlena throwing down with Jennifer over her treatment with Jack. That doesn't seem Marlena's style - unless she is dealing with someone intentionally evil like the DiMeras. I think overall, Marlena is not judgmental and understands human frailty. And I don't think she would break patient confidentiality by screaming at Jennifer. I will leave that to Nicole :-) :wub:Also, I really loved this scene, but I don't think I need to see more group therapy sessions. It was so powerful as a stand alone episode. I'd be happy to hear that Jack is continuing group therapy - but I don't need to see the sessions. When I say I want more of the PTSD story line - I don't mean that I want to see Jack having the same conversations over and over again about PTSD - like how MarDar write all of their other "stories." I mean that I want to see how Jack deals with PTSD as he builds his life. That said, I would be happy to see any of the actors/vets again - meeting Jack outside of therapy. Having coffee, or running into him at the HTS. We'd get a sense of the bond shared between the characters, but also allow for other conversation/action. And as for Pat, I can see Jack and Pat maybe getting closer. Some healing and maybe a slight re-bound thing. But I don't think Jack would take it too far. He would know that it's re-bound and wouldn't want to use Pat that way. It will take him a while to get over Jennifer. Unlike his ex-wife, he doesn't fall in love easily. She has been his ONLY love for almost a quarter century. When he said "I just want to go back home" - it was like a dagger in my heart. Jennifer has always been "home" for Jack. Now Jack has to find his center again, without Jennifer. But I would be thrilled to see some Jack/Pat and Jack with anyone else! This was a real treat. I thank Meng for dreaming up this episode. And I thank Culliton, DH, MA and most importantly the vets on the show, and all the vets who have served our country. And I am soooo grateful that Dannifer wasn't anywhere near this episode!!!!!! :cheer:
ITA, but I can't help but think the Jack/Pat thing if they pursue it could turn into something more real. I mean Jack is rebuilding his life and trying to find who he is again...and Jennifer just abandoned him when he really needed her. I think that spending more time with someone so brave and truly understands and relates to what he's been through (a life changing experience) and someone he can grow stronger with....they really could build on a nice real love story here. I have to hope that Pat wasn't an original part of the vets episode and they put her in there to chem test the two of them...and may pursue it as part of the rewrites???? ITA!! This is a time of rebuilding for Jack. He needs someone that he can grow stronger with. Pat seems like the perfect character.
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Harcourt
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Jan 28 2012, 07:40 AM
Post #168
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- annie21
- Jan 27 2012, 05:30 PM
- sals4
- Jan 27 2012, 02:37 PM
- happy
- Jan 27 2012, 01:14 AM
I FINALLY got to see the scenes!!!! I don't need to repeat what everyone else has said, so I will try to share some other thoughts. I thought Culliton did a really great job! I was impressed that he was able to write distinctive characters for the therapy session - and they each had their own arc during the episode. You got a sense of them as a group, and how they individually reacted to the new member - Jack. And the series of hugs at the end was beautiful and perfect. Loved MA's acting choices, like the slow shredding of his paper cup, jumping at Paco's touch, etc. But I also want to give KUDOS to Deidre Hall! She and Matt Ashford work so well together, even though they have very different acting styles and characters. Deidre didn't have many lines - but she is amazing with her reactions!! Completely grounded, listening without condescending - simple, elegant and strong. She just exudes warmth and compassion. I really love the friendship that is developing between Jack and Marlena. But I don't think I see Marlena throwing down with Jennifer over her treatment with Jack. That doesn't seem Marlena's style - unless she is dealing with someone intentionally evil like the DiMeras. I think overall, Marlena is not judgmental and understands human frailty. And I don't think she would break patient confidentiality by screaming at Jennifer. I will leave that to Nicole :-) :wub:Also, I really loved this scene, but I don't think I need to see more group therapy sessions. It was so powerful as a stand alone episode. I'd be happy to hear that Jack is continuing group therapy - but I don't need to see the sessions. When I say I want more of the PTSD story line - I don't mean that I want to see Jack having the same conversations over and over again about PTSD - like how MarDar write all of their other "stories." I mean that I want to see how Jack deals with PTSD as he builds his life. That said, I would be happy to see any of the actors/vets again - meeting Jack outside of therapy. Having coffee, or running into him at the HTS. We'd get a sense of the bond shared between the characters, but also allow for other conversation/action. And as for Pat, I can see Jack and Pat maybe getting closer. Some healing and maybe a slight re-bound thing. But I don't think Jack would take it too far. He would know that it's re-bound and wouldn't want to use Pat that way. It will take him a while to get over Jennifer. Unlike his ex-wife, he doesn't fall in love easily. She has been his ONLY love for almost a quarter century. When he said "I just want to go back home" - it was like a dagger in my heart. Jennifer has always been "home" for Jack. Now Jack has to find his center again, without Jennifer. But I would be thrilled to see some Jack/Pat and Jack with anyone else! This was a real treat. I thank Meng for dreaming up this episode. And I thank Culliton, DH, MA and most importantly the vets on the show, and all the vets who have served our country. And I am soooo grateful that Dannifer wasn't anywhere near this episode!!!!!! :cheer:
ITA, but I can't help but think the Jack/Pat thing if they pursue it could turn into something more real. I mean Jack is rebuilding his life and trying to find who he is again...and Jennifer just abandoned him when he really needed her. I think that spending more time with someone so brave and truly understands and relates to what he's been through (a life changing experience) and someone he can grow stronger with....they really could build on a nice real love story here. I have to hope that Pat wasn't an original part of the vets episode and they put her in there to chem test the two of them...and may pursue it as part of the rewrites????
I've been thinking of the possibility of more between Jack and Pat (and that's hard, because I still hold out hope that the real Jennifer will come back some day). But in any case, I'm reminded of that time when Mickey met Maggie. He was heartbroken and devastated after learning of the affair between his brother Bill and his wife Laura. I was just a little girl then so the details are fuzzy, but I remember feeling upset along with him that his life seemed over. And then he met Maggie. She was broken, too. Slowly, hesitantly, they healed each other, and it was a touching storyline from many aspects. Anyway, for whatever reason, there's a little something about Pat who reminds me of that younger version of Maggie. She seems full of sympathy and understanding, which can feel like a balm to Jack's wounded spirit (and to those of us who feel for him and what he's going through.) The Mickey and Maggie story was beautiful, and I would love to see Jack in a similar story.
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J&JMagic
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Jan 28 2012, 08:29 AM
Post #169
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I really loved the episode too! I only just got to watch it. I'm not sure that the writers are going to go anywhere with Pat. The one thing that was a bit strange was having her make a different entrance. Not sure why they did that? However, if anyone seems to think that they are going to be giving Jack a possible lady interest of his own, I think they are overestimating the writers!
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Dreamer
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Jan 28 2012, 09:04 AM
Post #170
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Gone, But Not Forgotten!
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- Romancer66
- Jan 28 2012, 12:50 AM
- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 12:29 AM
After rewatching the clips, It came to me, that Jack not only needs personal therapy sessions with Marlena, but also needs this type of support group to help him deal with his PTSD. IT was interesting to hear Paco say he wakes up each night, in a sweat and sees the faces of his unit membes,and that his wife wants to talk about it, but he can't, so they just live with it. Same for Mike who talks about the session as the only place to discuss it, outside of this, it is not something you can just bring up or discuss at a bar, etc. With all this said, it is like Jennifer is not entitled to be privy of what Jack went through, almost like it is a secret club. She would not be able to understand what happened to him, how he feels, what he saw, what he is living with. This is not an excuse for her poor treatment of Jack, but gives her a pass on getting involved in his treatment. I see now, that Jack needs to deal with it, and learn to move on with his life. I liked how he admits that he was/is unable to do this, which makes sense for his action of the past few months. I think Jack will give Jen credit for telling him to fix his life and that she was right in her not being able to help himm but gets failing marks for judging him and not being there to see him through it. I find this to be the saddest part. I want Jack to be happy again and to see him smile. I am so interested in how this is going to affect his character moving forward, I can't see TPTB being able to sweep this issue of JACK'S under the rug, anytime soon.
Thing is, Paco's wife wants to help him. She wants to be involved. She's willing to listen, no matter how horrible it gets. Paco may not want to inflict what he's experienced on her, but that doesn't change the fact that his wife wants to be part of his recovery process. She's there for him. Jennifer hasn't been there for Jack since the cabin scenes, and she's made it painfully clear that she has no intention of being there. She's either callous and rejecting--"I'm not the person who can fix you . . . I want a happy man, and you are not that man"--or clueless and superficial--"You should talk to Marlena, so you can get closure." And her indifference becomes more marked every time we see Jack in sessions with Marlena or, just now, with the vets. How can anyone but the most ardent Jennifer apologist defend her coldness and total lack of involvement while the man she's shared her life for 20 years is going through hell? Seems to me if Jack can stand to live through his experiences, then she can stand hearing about them. Instead, she bitches him out and pushes him onto a therapist instead, then doubtless pats herself on the back for even bothering to do that much for her "mess" of an ex. This needs to become an issue between J&J. Because how can he ever trust her to be there for him when he needs her, based on the way she's behaving now? Romancer66, IA with all that you have said about Jennifer not wanting to be their for Jack and pushing him away and sending him out to therapy. I abhor her treatment and behaviour towards Jack, TPTB have scripted this, so it must be for a reason, that will be dealt with later.
Grasping at straws, I can say that Jack comments about coming home to pick up where he left off with his life, only to find him family and life had moved on without him. Is very telling.
Unlike Paco's wife, she was probably waiting, worrying and anticpating his return from duty. Paco came home to a loving wife, who was prepared to support and love him at all cost. In Jennifer's case, she had mentally filed Jack away the man who left her, never ojected about a divorce, didn't return when she almost died, etc., Jennifer was not expecting Jack to return home, she honestly believed he was out galavanting the world, having dumped her and his family for a new life of his own. Jennifer had moved on with her life and this includes her new relationship with Daniel, not matter how shallow and meaningless as it many seem to the viewer, it was real to her. The fans expected Jennifer to drop everything in her life and ignore the past year of issues she experienced, and swoon at Jack's feet, in love and supporting her man. For most, it was a no brainer, but TPTB decided to make this an issue for JnJ. I will call it Jenniferr's inability to be there and help Jack with his plight, not done with malicious intent, but solely reacting out of fear, anger and hurt. Jack expected to jump back into a happy life, and so no discussion about what Jen's been throughhas been brought up either. TPTB have backburned this, why?? could be for numerous reasons......so Jennifer's bitcherifer mode is in full force and Jack is mistreated and left alone to handle his problems. Now, Jennifer is unable to move on....unable to decide what she wants... who she wants to be with...... Her life is abruptly on spin cycle, just as Jacks, something has to happen to ground them both.
Edited by Dreamer, Jan 28 2012, 09:06 AM.
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Romancer66
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Jan 28 2012, 09:33 AM
Post #171
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- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 09:04 AM
- Romancer66
- Jan 28 2012, 12:50 AM
- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 12:29 AM
After rewatching the clips, It came to me, that Jack not only needs personal therapy sessions with Marlena, but also needs this type of support group to help him deal with his PTSD. IT was interesting to hear Paco say he wakes up each night, in a sweat and sees the faces of his unit membes,and that his wife wants to talk about it, but he can't, so they just live with it. Same for Mike who talks about the session as the only place to discuss it, outside of this, it is not something you can just bring up or discuss at a bar, etc. With all this said, it is like Jennifer is not entitled to be privy of what Jack went through, almost like it is a secret club. She would not be able to understand what happened to him, how he feels, what he saw, what he is living with. This is not an excuse for her poor treatment of Jack, but gives her a pass on getting involved in his treatment. I see now, that Jack needs to deal with it, and learn to move on with his life. I liked how he admits that he was/is unable to do this, which makes sense for his action of the past few months. I think Jack will give Jen credit for telling him to fix his life and that she was right in her not being able to help himm but gets failing marks for judging him and not being there to see him through it. I find this to be the saddest part. I want Jack to be happy again and to see him smile. I am so interested in how this is going to affect his character moving forward, I can't see TPTB being able to sweep this issue of JACK'S under the rug, anytime soon.
Thing is, Paco's wife wants to help him. She wants to be involved. She's willing to listen, no matter how horrible it gets. Paco may not want to inflict what he's experienced on her, but that doesn't change the fact that his wife wants to be part of his recovery process. She's there for him. Jennifer hasn't been there for Jack since the cabin scenes, and she's made it painfully clear that she has no intention of being there. She's either callous and rejecting--"I'm not the person who can fix you . . . I want a happy man, and you are not that man"--or clueless and superficial--"You should talk to Marlena, so you can get closure." And her indifference becomes more marked every time we see Jack in sessions with Marlena or, just now, with the vets. How can anyone but the most ardent Jennifer apologist defend her coldness and total lack of involvement while the man she's shared her life for 20 years is going through hell? Seems to me if Jack can stand to live through his experiences, then she can stand hearing about them. Instead, she bitches him out and pushes him onto a therapist instead, then doubtless pats herself on the back for even bothering to do that much for her "mess" of an ex. This needs to become an issue between J&J. Because how can he ever trust her to be there for him when he needs her, based on the way she's behaving now?
Romancer66, IA with all that you have said about Jennifer not wanting to be their for Jack and pushing him away and sending him out to therapy. I abhor her treatment and behaviour towards Jack, TPTB have scripted this, so it must be for a reason, that will be dealt with later. Grasping at straws, I can say that Jack comments about coming home to pick up where he left off with his life, only to find him family and life had moved on without him. Is very telling. Unlike Paco's wife, she was probably waiting, worrying and anticpating his return from duty. Paco came home to a loving wife, who was prepared to support and love him at all cost. In Jennifer's case, she had mentally filed Jack away the man who left her, never ojected about a divorce, didn't return when she almost died, etc., Jennifer was not expecting Jack to return home, she honestly believed he was out galavanting the world, having dumped her and his family for a new life of his own. Jennifer had moved on with her life and this includes her new relationship with Daniel, not matter how shallow and meaningless as it many seem to the viewer, it was real to her. The fans expected Jennifer to drop everything in her life and ignore the past year of issues she experienced, and swoon at Jack's feet, in love and supporting her man. For most, it was a no brainer, but TPTB decided to make this an issue for JnJ. I will call it Jenniferr's inability to be there and help Jack with his plight, not done with malicious intent, but solely reacting out of fear, anger and hurt. Jack expected to jump back into a happy life, and so no discussion about what Jen's been throughhas been brought up either. TPTB have backburned this, why?? could be for numerous reasons......so Jennifer's bitcherifer mode is in full force and Jack is mistreated and left alone to handle his problems. Now, Jennifer is unable to move on....unable to decide what she wants... who she wants to be with...... Her life is abruptly on spin cycle, just as Jacks, something has to happen to ground them both. To be fair, I don't think most fans expected an insta-reunion between J&J. Obviously, there were going to be issues--there should be issues, even after Jack confessed the truth and Jennifer supposedly forgave him for misleading them all. Issues of honesty, trust, faith--not only his but hers too. But I don't think anyone was expecting this degree of coldness, much less abusiveness, from Jennifer after she got some idea of what Jack was really going through. Compassion is supposed to be one of her hallmark traits, so putting aside her sense of grievance to help him heal would have been in character for her. Instead, she's coddled her grievance and looked for any reason, however petty or ridiculous, to keep it alive. It's not that she couldn't be there for Jack in his darkest hour, it's that she's chosen not to be. There's a big difference between "can't" and "won't," between being unable and being unwilling. Sadly, Jennifer's the latter. And maybe her choice isn't malicious, but it sure as hell is self-centered and rather cowardly too. She's made everything about her and her feelings, showing an unattractive narcissistic side that has a lot of viewers turning against her. It would be nice to think TPTB are depicting her like this for a reason, and a big fall or crisis is coming for Jennifer but I'm not holding my breath at this point.
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annie21
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Jan 28 2012, 09:57 AM
Post #172
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- Romancer66
- Jan 28 2012, 09:33 AM
- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 09:04 AM
- Romancer66
- Jan 28 2012, 12:50 AM
- Dreamer
- Jan 28 2012, 12:29 AM
After rewatching the clips, It came to me, that Jack not only needs personal therapy sessions with Marlena, but also needs this type of support group to help him deal with his PTSD. IT was interesting to hear Paco say he wakes up each night, in a sweat and sees the faces of his unit membes,and that his wife wants to talk about it, but he can't, so they just live with it. Same for Mike who talks about the session as the only place to discuss it, outside of this, it is not something you can just bring up or discuss at a bar, etc. With all this said, it is like Jennifer is not entitled to be privy of what Jack went through, almost like it is a secret club. She would not be able to understand what happened to him, how he feels, what he saw, what he is living with. This is not an excuse for her poor treatment of Jack, but gives her a pass on getting involved in his treatment. I see now, that Jack needs to deal with it, and learn to move on with his life. I liked how he admits that he was/is unable to do this, which makes sense for his action of the past few months. I think Jack will give Jen credit for telling him to fix his life and that she was right in her not being able to help himm but gets failing marks for judging him and not being there to see him through it. I find this to be the saddest part. I want Jack to be happy again and to see him smile. I am so interested in how this is going to affect his character moving forward, I can't see TPTB being able to sweep this issue of JACK'S under the rug, anytime soon.
Thing is, Paco's wife wants to help him. She wants to be involved. She's willing to listen, no matter how horrible it gets. Paco may not want to inflict what he's experienced on her, but that doesn't change the fact that his wife wants to be part of his recovery process. She's there for him. Jennifer hasn't been there for Jack since the cabin scenes, and she's made it painfully clear that she has no intention of being there. She's either callous and rejecting--"I'm not the person who can fix you . . . I want a happy man, and you are not that man"--or clueless and superficial--"You should talk to Marlena, so you can get closure." And her indifference becomes more marked every time we see Jack in sessions with Marlena or, just now, with the vets. How can anyone but the most ardent Jennifer apologist defend her coldness and total lack of involvement while the man she's shared her life for 20 years is going through hell? Seems to me if Jack can stand to live through his experiences, then she can stand hearing about them. Instead, she bitches him out and pushes him onto a therapist instead, then doubtless pats herself on the back for even bothering to do that much for her "mess" of an ex. This needs to become an issue between J&J. Because how can he ever trust her to be there for him when he needs her, based on the way she's behaving now?
Romancer66, IA with all that you have said about Jennifer not wanting to be their for Jack and pushing him away and sending him out to therapy. I abhor her treatment and behaviour towards Jack, TPTB have scripted this, so it must be for a reason, that will be dealt with later. Grasping at straws, I can say that Jack comments about coming home to pick up where he left off with his life, only to find him family and life had moved on without him. Is very telling. Unlike Paco's wife, she was probably waiting, worrying and anticpating his return from duty. Paco came home to a loving wife, who was prepared to support and love him at all cost. In Jennifer's case, she had mentally filed Jack away the man who left her, never ojected about a divorce, didn't return when she almost died, etc., Jennifer was not expecting Jack to return home, she honestly believed he was out galavanting the world, having dumped her and his family for a new life of his own. Jennifer had moved on with her life and this includes her new relationship with Daniel, not matter how shallow and meaningless as it many seem to the viewer, it was real to her. The fans expected Jennifer to drop everything in her life and ignore the past year of issues she experienced, and swoon at Jack's feet, in love and supporting her man. For most, it was a no brainer, but TPTB decided to make this an issue for JnJ. I will call it Jenniferr's inability to be there and help Jack with his plight, not done with malicious intent, but solely reacting out of fear, anger and hurt. Jack expected to jump back into a happy life, and so no discussion about what Jen's been throughhas been brought up either. TPTB have backburned this, why?? could be for numerous reasons......so Jennifer's bitcherifer mode is in full force and Jack is mistreated and left alone to handle his problems. Now, Jennifer is unable to move on....unable to decide what she wants... who she wants to be with...... Her life is abruptly on spin cycle, just as Jacks, something has to happen to ground them both.
To be fair, I don't think most fans expected an insta-reunion between J&J. Obviously, there were going to be issues--there should be issues, even after Jack confessed the truth and Jennifer supposedly forgave him for misleading them all. Issues of honesty, trust, faith--not only his but hers too. But I don't think anyone was expecting this degree of coldness, much less abusiveness, from Jennifer after she got some idea of what Jack was really going through. Compassion is supposed to be one of her hallmark traits, so putting aside her sense of grievance to help him heal would have been in character for her. Instead, she's coddled her grievance and looked for any reason, however petty or ridiculous, to keep it alive. It's not that she couldn't be there for Jack in his darkest hour, it's that she's chosen not to be. There's a big difference between "can't" and "won't," between being unable and being unwilling. Sadly, Jennifer's the latter. And maybe her choice isn't malicious, but it sure as hell is self-centered and rather cowardly too. She's made everything about her and her feelings, showing an unattractive narcissistic side that has a lot of viewers turning against her. It would be nice to think TPTB are depicting her like this for a reason, and a big fall or crisis is coming for Jennifer but I'm not holding my breath at this point. I understand what Dreamer is saying, but, for me, the biggest elephant in the room is the very fact that Jennifer made assumptions about Jack. That she "mentally filed Jack away [as] the man who left her, never objected about a divorce, didn't return when she almost died, etc., Jennifer was not expecting Jack to return home, she honestly believed he was out galavanting the world, having dumped her and his family for a new life of his own."
They need to explore WHY she so easily believed her husband who loved her so much, and who, up until at least Alice's funeral, was laughing and joking intimately with her over the phone, would just up and leave both her AND the kids. I can understand feeling angry and hurt. But then you GET SOME ANSWERS! Especially if you're someone like Jennifer, and especially if you're part of a couple like Jack and Jennifer who shared such deep feelings for each other -- and even MORE especially if you have had your husband kidnapped by bad guys on several previous occasions!!!
As far as I'm concerned, she's the one who moved on, who dumped her husband without his knowledge, and was gallivanting around in a desperate and deliberate move to forget him and to forget what they had shared together. Her behavior is just as nonsensical and just as culpable as his.
I truly believe that the real character we know as Jennifer would be feeling at least some guilt and shame over her own actions. She would have to be asking herself whether she should have done more to look for her husband, and whether, if she had done so, she could have spared him (and their entire family) some of the pain and suffering they've all endured.
If the writers are setting her up for dealing with any of this-- and for owning up to her poor treatment of Jack since the cabin scenes, it's really hard to tell. Jennifer's only overt display of introspection is to tell Hope she is "fickle" for not being able to choose between two "amazing" men. That's all we get.
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J&JMagic
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Jan 28 2012, 10:52 AM
Post #173
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So many good points here. IF only we were the ones writing the show! The writers had a gold mine. In fairness, they have chosen some very good avenues to explore (cave in Afganistan vs walkabout). If I could have chosen a storyline for Jack when he came back, I'm not sure I could have come up with a better idea. And the PTSD is also such an amazing story (too bad we only see it about twice a month). However, that is where my props to the writers end. This is how it SHOULD have went down...
Jack returns - walks right into the party, no cake. The confrontation scenes still happen as written, as does the apology scenes from Jack. As soon as Jennifer said that she wasn't sure who she should be with, Jack should have stepped back and told Jennifer that he would make the choice easy for her (essentially, what took 4 months to get to in real DAYS). I would have loved to see him dealing with his PTSD and have Jennifer discover it, and then fight to help Jack, and then fight to get Jack back.
If the writers were true to the character of Jennifer (and I agree, the writers have pretty much nailed Jack), she would NEVER have even believed he was on a walkabout. MarDar should have addressed all of that. I guess, it's not too late to move in that direction.
I think this episode was NOT part of the re-writes that we have heard about. I think that there has been major backlash about the triangle, so that might have been scrapped. There were snippets in today's episode that lead me to believe that Jack will realize that Jennifer was not there for him. Unfortunately, i think it will take a while.
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lore
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Jan 28 2012, 12:26 PM
Post #174
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- J&JMagic
- Jan 28 2012, 08:29 AM
I really loved the episode too! I only just got to watch it. I'm not sure that the writers are going to go anywhere with Pat. The one thing that was a bit strange was having her make a different entrance. Not sure why they did that? However, if anyone seems to think that they are going to be giving Jack a possible lady interest of his own, I think they are overestimating the writers! I thought that the separate entrance for Pat was significant. And when she and Jack exchanged names, I immediately thought--ooooh, that could be Jack&Pat's first flashback clip...their first meet. :wub:
I don't have much hope since I have no faith in the writers to allow Jack to be free of Jennifer, but I do remember that DAYS' twitter account sent a little "feeler" question out on whether Jack should have a new love interest. I don't know when that was, but it might have been around the time of the PTSD vet taping. Maybe the writers thought that they could explore the Pat/Jack potential. :cheer:
I went to the actress' Facebook today and tried to find some clues to ongoing work with DAYS. There were none. But I still left a thank you to her for a job well done. :rockon:
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Harcourt
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Jan 28 2012, 01:08 PM
Post #175
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I just rewatched Thursday's show, and the Vet scenes are near perfection. Those Vets are definitely given their due, and Jack's presence takes nothing away from them. His story only enhances the whole episode. And I bet that Jack's story is a compilation of many stories, as told by soldiers, journalist, and others who have suffered, and still do suffer, from PTSD. He's a fictional character, but I bet his story is someone's, many someone's, real life story.
I, also, didn't mind the flashback scene to the cave and the torture. I didn't feel that it took away from the episode, at all. TPTB, however, probably only used it to remind people of what Jack has been through, and what PTSD is about, since they rarely feature him, and the story, on the show. This is the shows best SL, and they won't let it play itself out naturally. What a waste.
Also, Matt, DH and the Vets were wonderful. Matt is one of the most underrated and underappreciated actors on soaps. Always has been, and always will be, I suppose, but it is still nice to see him get a chance to show people what he can do. The only other actor who can hold my attention like this on the show is Chandler Massey.
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J&JMagic
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Jan 28 2012, 01:13 PM
Post #176
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I agree with you, Harcourt. The only other actor on the show who I never fail to watch a scene is Chandler Massey. He is really great!
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annie21
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Jan 28 2012, 01:35 PM
Post #177
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- Harcourt
- Jan 28 2012, 01:08 PM
I just rewatched Thursday's show, and the Vet scenes are near perfection. Those Vets are definitely given their due, and Jack's presence takes nothing away from them. His story only enhances the whole episode. And I bet that Jack's story is a compilation of many stories, as told by soldiers, journalist, and others who have suffered, and still do suffer, from PTSD. He's a fictional character, but I bet his story is someone's, many someone's, real life story.
I, also, didn't mind the flashback scene to the cave and the torture. I didn't feel that it took away from the episode, at all. TPTB, however, probably only used it to remind people of what Jack has been through, and what PTSD is about, since they rarely feature him, and the story, on the show. This is the shows best SL, and they won't let it play itself out naturally. What a waste.
Also, Matt, DH and the Vets were wonderful. Matt is one of the most underrated and underappreciated actors on soaps. Always has been, and always will be, I suppose, but it is still nice to see him get a chance to show people what he can do. The only other actor who can hold my attention like this on the show is Chandler Massey. I agree, Harcourt, about the use of the flashback. I know some people thought it didn't fit. But I think it was necessary. This episode was somewhat of a standalone in that there could have been many, many vets and their families who were tuning in out of curiosity just to watch it. There needed to be a recap of what Jack has been going through, and the flashback served to "up the ante" for those who were not able to get a clear picture fromf Jack's words. Also, there had already been some skepticism expressed in the room that Jack's trauma was not up to the level of what the soldiers had gone through. Jack, himself, downplayed his own ordeal. But the visuals accompanying his story underscored for a newer audience the extent of the torture he'd endured.
Many new or occasional viewers were shocked. I saw posts from people on other boards who said they had no idea what Jack had really gone through until the veterans episode, because the show barely mentions it. Apparently, they missed the previous times the flashback scenes were shown.
It's easy to forget how shocked we all were when we first saw those flashbacks during the cabin scenes as Jack re-lived those awful moments. A whole new set of people got to experience a taste of that on Thursday's episode.
Edited by annie21, Jan 28 2012, 01:36 PM.
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lysie
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Jan 28 2012, 01:38 PM
Post #178
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"A whole new set of people..."
What?
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annie21
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Jan 28 2012, 01:44 PM
Post #179
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Sorry, maybe that was overstating it. :)
What I meant was anyone who hadn't previously tuned in or paid attention to Jack and his PTSD storyline. Okay, so maybe a handful of people?
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Romancer66
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Jan 28 2012, 02:43 PM
Post #180
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i've already praised MA for his fine performance on Thursday, but since the vets episode was largely an ensemble piece, I thought I'd give the actors playing the vets their rightful due as well. I liked the effort that went in to making them individuals--and while they had certain behavioral similarities that mark them as military or ex-military (especially the guys), they were also distinctive.
"Mike" was the testiest, the one probably least receptive to Jack, at least initially, and he's clearly got his issues and stress triggers too, as shown by his repeated complaints when Jack was standing and they were sitting: "I don't like talking to guys standing over me."
"Rob" was withdrawn and maybe just a little sullen, but that was satisfactorily explained when he informed the group that he couldn't go back to his unit for medical reasons. He had his "20-year-service" all planned out, and now he has to come to terms with that no longer being possible.
"Paco" seemed the most emotionally open and the most willing to talk about his issues. He also seemed the most receptive of the guys to having a newcomer in their midst, as shown by his touching Jack and asking him directly about what he'd gone through.
"Leslie" was calm, kind, and seemed very nurturing and positive. I'm not surprised to learn she's a motivational speaker in real life.
"Pat" was also calm and kind, but she seems a little more fragile than Leslie. More openly vulnerable. She teared up several times--when talking about her son and when listening to Jack talk about his cellmate being tortured and killed and how he hadn't wanted to know people could do that to others. She comes across as very empathetic. And I noticed how Mike gave a genuine smile when he told Jack that Pat doesn't talk about herself but she's a good listener. So I would guess that drawing Pat out to discuss her own issues is something of a challenge.
All three guys had that stoic, stiff upper lip demeanor that seems to be characteristic of military men. Jack can be repressed at times, but compared to Mike, Paco, and Rob, he's a torrent of emotions. His restlessness, the way he couldn't seem to sit or stand still, was a dramatic contrast to how these three sat, lounged, or slouched in their chairs. So, nice use of body language all around.
I'd be glad to see these vets again, in or out of therapy. So i hope at least some of them make return appearances.
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