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Spoilers for the week of July 2nd; *updated 6/26*
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Topic Started: Jun 21 2012, 12:56 PM (30,990 Views)
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LuvingLumi
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Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
Post #181
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Come on Ron, We are counting on YOU !!
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- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 24 2012, 05:53 PM
- Ejami79
- Jun 24 2012, 04:11 PM
The EJILL debate is hilarious. I think EJILL is so popular because their relationship has been well written and developed. The changing dynamics make sense. Will not only loves the perks & the power, but also the independence that EJ provided for him. EJ treats Will like an adult. Due to his association with EJ, Will has become more confident and happy. Will said at first he didn't want to work for EJ, but came to love it. I love that there was a transition from "hate" to "love" and it makes sense that Will was so upset when EJ fired him. Will had a lot going on in his life and EJ provided an outlet for Will. Will benefitted greatly from his association with EJ and I think EJ also enjoys the kinship. Plus Will has a natural dark side to him and with EJ he is able to tap into that side a bit more. I love dark Will too.
They threaten/blackmail each other to try to get more control, but there's also a dependency between the two. This is why EJILL have a complex relationship- there's different layers. I love that you don't know what's going to happen next or if there's going to be scenes where they're getting along, working together, scheming, threatening each other, or whatever. You know what you're going to get when Will has scenes with most other characters. So the EJILL dynamic is just more engaging to watch. I don't want to see EJILL get along all the time, though I enjoy the tender moments and when they're working together, but I want to see some angst too. I can see more betrayals, fights, and blackmail. But at the same time, see them supporting and protecting each other.
I could be wrong but I get the impression that haters of EJILL are basing their opinions based on other relationships. Lumis are jealous of the father/son type bond between EJILL, WilSon fans either want all of Will's storylines revolved around Sonny or don't like that the EJILL chemistry gets so much attention, and both Lumi & Ejoles see EJILL as an EJAMI connection. Does that sound about right or no?
I view EJILL as their own entity/dynamic and have a great consistent storyline that is fun to watch. I love that there's so much buzz and support for EJILL too! I hope Days is smart enough to keep writing for this popular and awesome dynamic duo!
I agree that is why I love their relationship, I don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
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....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying. but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information.
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SocRMum1
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Jun 25 2012, 09:48 AM
Post #182
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Much prefers sweevil, snarky EJ over Father Figure Fucktard Eejiot.
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- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 24 2012, 05:53 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
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....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information. Will was practically begging EJ to give him his job back...both before he bailed him out and after. I don't get the impression that Will feels he's being forced to work for EJ. EJ may be holding that information over his head but I don't think Will has any real fear that EJ will spill it.
Will has made no secret of the fact he enjoys working for EJ - he's said it to everyone, including Lumi and EJ.
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elci525
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Jun 25 2012, 09:51 AM
Post #183
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- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 24 2012, 05:53 PM
- Ejami79
- Jun 24 2012, 04:11 PM
The EJILL debate is hilarious. I think EJILL is so popular because their relationship has been well written and developed. The changing dynamics make sense. Will not only loves the perks & the power, but also the independence that EJ provided for him. EJ treats Will like an adult. Due to his association with EJ, Will has become more confident and happy. Will said at first he didn't want to work for EJ, but came to love it. I love that there was a transition from "hate" to "love" and it makes sense that Will was so upset when EJ fired him. Will had a lot going on in his life and EJ provided an outlet for Will. Will benefitted greatly from his association with EJ and I think EJ also enjoys the kinship. Plus Will has a natural dark side to him and with EJ he is able to tap into that side a bit more. I love dark Will too.
They threaten/blackmail each other to try to get more control, but there's also a dependency between the two. This is why EJILL have a complex relationship- there's different layers. I love that you don't know what's going to happen next or if there's going to be scenes where they're getting along, working together, scheming, threatening each other, or whatever. You know what you're going to get when Will has scenes with most other characters. So the EJILL dynamic is just more engaging to watch. I don't want to see EJILL get along all the time, though I enjoy the tender moments and when they're working together, but I want to see some angst too. I can see more betrayals, fights, and blackmail. But at the same time, see them supporting and protecting each other.
I could be wrong but I get the impression that haters of EJILL are basing their opinions based on other relationships. Lumis are jealous of the father/son type bond between EJILL, WilSon fans either want all of Will's storylines revolved around Sonny or don't like that the EJILL chemistry gets so much attention, and both Lumi & Ejoles see EJILL as an EJAMI connection. Does that sound about right or no?
I view EJILL as their own entity/dynamic and have a great consistent storyline that is fun to watch. I love that there's so much buzz and support for EJILL too! I hope Days is smart enough to keep writing for this popular and awesome dynamic duo!
I agree that is why I love their relationship, I don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
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....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying. We will have to agree to disagree then, b/c I see the physical stuff as a kind of bullying, and very unnecessary, and something that makes EJ look very foolish. Bullying to me would not only be evidenced by Will being forced to do something he didn't want to do - that isn't it for me. If the EJill dynamic is so darn complex and full of gray shades, then the way EJ controls and coerces Will is complex too. And I personally don't think I am wrong. What would you call the smacking and the manhandling then?
I am absolutely NOT forgetting that Will blackmailed EJ first; where did I say in my post that I thought that? I have said before that I don't disagree that Will got in over his head, tried to run with the big boys and is now being taught a lesson. That is fine. But when EJ gets physical, with someone smaller, younger, begging for clemency, etc. that I cannot abide. The condescending hollering makes me uncomfortable too, but whatever. And I still sort of think EJ should have bigger fish to fry than to waste his time on Will. But I guess that is debatable so I won't harp too much on it.
I am not saying Will needs to be defending his family b/c EJ is giving him particular cause to have to do that at the moment. This is just a hope I have for Will in the future, should he be tested this way, should EJ give him cause to worry about harm that might come to his family or to his friends (esp. Sonny) at EJ's hands. Or, you know, as retribution for EJ's past crimes against his family, which I believe Will would very much remember and still posses some ire over. This is my hope for a future layer to add to the "oh-so-multi-layered" Ejill dynamic. That Will is conflicted and not anxious to stop working for EJ, fine. But I want to see how he'd react should he realize this association with EJ is in some way harming the people he loves. Some might want Will to go completely dark side and not care. I would like to see him care, I think he could and should, and this would make me feel like he was still being written in character within this new dynamic. I don't want to see Will lose himself completely. That would no longer be gray. That is all I meant.
And I never said Will needed to protect himself, although, come to think of it, I am not ruling it out altogether given this is EJ we are talking about.
If you read my post, I do say I like a lot of what Ejill is. I still think Will is a giant mess - I am not sure I think he is lots stronger. But I admit he is gaining in confidence, esp. given this week's spoilers that he gains the upper-hand on EJ. That has me all sorts of excited, that is what I want to see out of Will and EJill. I am not jumping the gun yet, but if and when Will turns the tables on EJ a little, that will make me very happy. But I can see the dynamic shifting constantly, and Will shifting constantly within it. And that is OK. There are just some aspects about I do not like (admittedly, some of that is motivated by the fact that I am a Lumi fan, but I think I am entitled to those feelings and that they are valid), some tweaks I'd prefer to see, and hopes I have for Will for the future of his role in this dynamic.
I am not 100% against Ejill, but I am also not ga-ga over it. I am just tired of seeing Will's lip quiver; those strange glances he kept giving on Friday annoyed the shit out of me - and I just want to see something new. I don't think he has been giving back as good as he has been getting thus far, so I am excited to see that tide change this week.
Edited by elci525, Jun 25 2012, 10:03 AM.
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supercool74
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Jun 25 2012, 09:53 AM
Post #184
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I think the writing is just all over the place right now in regards to Will/EJ. I watched todays scenes between Will and Sonny. At the end Will is telling Sonny that he thinks he can put EJ away. That he wants to find out what EJ is hiding. But a couple of minutes before that Will is telling Sonny that EJ isn't that bad. He's defending him. I like the Will/EJ stuff, but I have to admit that things get confusing because we don't know what the hell is going on inside of Will's head. I wish they would let the audience in on some of that. If they at least let us know how Will was conflicted (if he is) then the story might be easier to swallow for some. Right now we just see him seem to want to be loyal and defending EJ, then turns around and says he's going to get dirt on him and put him away. It doesn't make sense. Maybe he's just telling Sonny that to get him off his back. I don't know. But we as the audience need to know what Will's motivation is. It's nice to have some mystery for a while...but if it drags on too long they lose that audience because we are don't know what the hell is going on.
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LuvingLumi
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Jun 25 2012, 09:56 AM
Post #185
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Come on Ron, We are counting on YOU !!
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- SocRMum1
- Jun 25 2012, 09:48 AM
- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.[EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen.
Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing.
Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information.
Will was practically begging EJ to give him his job back...both before he bailed him out and after. I don't get the impression that Will feels he's being forced to work for EJ. EJ may be holding that information over his head but I don't think Will has any real fear that EJ will spill it. Will has made no secret of the fact he enjoys working for EJ - he's said it to everyone, including Lumi and EJ. then there is no need to be blackmailed is there? Why even have Ej go there? Why can't EJ just have bailed him out and said, 'hey if you want your job back you got it...'....
The scenes where he bailed him out obviously had a tone of 'I own you again' to them....
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SocRMum1
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Jun 25 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #186
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Much prefers sweevil, snarky EJ over Father Figure Fucktard Eejiot.
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- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:56 AM
- SocRMum1
- Jun 25 2012, 09:48 AM
- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information.
Will was practically begging EJ to give him his job back...both before he bailed him out and after. I don't get the impression that Will feels he's being forced to work for EJ. EJ may be holding that information over his head but I don't think Will has any real fear that EJ will spill it. Will has made no secret of the fact he enjoys working for EJ - he's said it to everyone, including Lumi and EJ.
then there is no need to be blackmailed is there? Why even have Ej go there? Why can't EJ just have bailed him out and said, 'hey if you want your job back you got it...'.... The scenes where he bailed him out obviously had a tone of 'I own you again' to them.... Oh, it wasn't just a tone. EJ flat out said it again. :laugh:
But then...a day or so later he's counseling Will to tell the truth and save himself from the murder charges.
I certainly agree there is a confusing dynamic between EJ/Will - but it's clear to me that Will does not feel forced to be working for EJ. And when push comes to shove, EJ doesn't seem interested in seeing Will get hurt or having any harm come to him.
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SoapGal1
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Jun 25 2012, 10:13 AM
Post #187
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I agree with those that say the EJill dynamic is confusing at times. But what relationship on this show isn't? I have to take what I can get when it comes to Days.
I love the Ejill relationship. I think EJ tries to play with an iron fist & somehow ends up doing the right thing despite himself where Will is concerned. And as for Will, I think he knows he should hate EJ but he just can't really seem to do it.
I do wish the writing was more clear on them as with the whole rest of Salem but I'm pretty sure we're not going to get any clearer when TomSell's stuff takes over. If memory serves, characters were WAY more out of character with Tomlin at the helm than they have been with MarDar.
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JamesScott_19
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Jun 25 2012, 10:13 AM
Post #188
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Don't get up. So how are you? What happened, eh? Let me guess, Stefano told you that you could fly,and you jumped off a building. HeHe It's funny right, no I'm sorry Bad EJ, I should'nt be that cruel!
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- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 24 2012, 05:53 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
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....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information. He did not force him to do anything, Will was the one that blackmailed him first so if you are going to use that, you have to back to the original blackmail.
Will can walk away from working with him but he chooses to stay. There is no force necessary,.
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JamesScott_19
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Jun 25 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #189
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Don't get up. So how are you? What happened, eh? Let me guess, Stefano told you that you could fly,and you jumped off a building. HeHe It's funny right, no I'm sorry Bad EJ, I should'nt be that cruel!
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- elci525
- Jun 25 2012, 09:51 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 24 2012, 05:53 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
-
....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying.
We will have to agree to disagree then, b/c I see the physical stuff as a kind of bullying, and very unnecessary, and something that makes EJ look very foolish. Bullying to me would not only be evidenced by Will being forced to do something he didn't want to do - that isn't it for me. If the EJill dynamic is so darn complex and full of gray shades, then the way EJ controls and coerces Will is complex too. And I personally don't think I am wrong. What would you call the smacking and the manhandling then? I am absolutely NOT forgetting that Will blackmailed EJ first; where did I say in my post that I thought that? I have said before that I don't disagree that Will got in over his head, tried to run with the big boys and is now being taught a lesson. That is fine. But when EJ gets physical, with someone smaller, younger, begging for clemency, etc. that I cannot abide. The condescending hollering makes me uncomfortable too, but whatever. And I still sort of think EJ should have bigger fish to fry than to waste his time on Will. But I guess that is debatable so I won't harp too much on it. I am not saying Will needs to be defending his family b/c EJ is giving him particular cause to have to do that at the moment. This is just a hope I have for Will in the future, should he be tested this way, should EJ give him cause to worry about harm that might come to his family or to his friends (esp. Sonny) at EJ's hands. Or, you know, as retribution for EJ's past crimes against his family, which I believe Will would very much remember and still posses some ire over. This is my hope for a future layer to add to the "oh-so-multi-layered" Ejill dynamic. That Will is conflicted and not anxious to stop working for EJ, fine. But I want to see how he'd react should he realize this association with EJ is in some way harming the people he loves. Some might want Will to go completely dark side and not care. I would like to see him care, I think he could and should, and this would make me feel like he was still being written in character within this new dynamic. I don't want to see Will lose himself completely. That would no longer be gray. That is all I meant. And I never said Will needed to protect himself, although, come to think of it, I am not ruling it out altogether given this is EJ we are talking about. If you read my post, I do say I like a lot of what Ejill is. I still think Will is a giant mess - I am not sure I think he is lots stronger. But I admit he is gaining in confidence, esp. given this week's spoilers that he gains the upper-hand on EJ. That has me all sorts of excited, that is what I want to see out of Will and EJill. I am not jumping the gun yet, but if and when Will turns the tables on EJ a little, that will make me very happy. But I can see the dynamic shifting constantly, and Will shifting constantly within it. And that is OK. There are just some aspects about I do not like (admittedly, some of that is motivated by the fact that I am a Lumi fan, but I think I am entitled to those feelings and that they are valid), some tweaks I'd prefer to see, and hopes I have for Will for the future of his role in this dynamic. I am not 100% against Ejill, but I am also not ga-ga over it. I am just tired of seeing Will's lip quiver; those strange glances he kept giving on Friday annoyed the shit out of me - and I just want to see something new. I don't think he has been giving back as good as he has been getting thus far, so I am excited to see that tide change this week. We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
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supercool74
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Jun 25 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #190
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Maybe Will just wants to have dirt on EJ so he can work for him without being blackmailed into working for him. I can see him getting this information and then just telling him..."Okay now I have something on you so knock off the crap. Let's get back to work". As much as he says he wants to put EJ away...I'm not really buying it. I think he just wants to know what EJ is hiding and use it for his own blackmailing. I don't see this EJill relationship ending anytime soon...because everyone is talking about it.
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Dolly
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Jun 25 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #191
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To me, Mar/Dar have written every character very changeable. It has driven me nuts. I like some of what they have done, but the back and fourth has been rediculous.
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elci525
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Jun 25 2012, 10:21 AM
Post #192
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- Quote:
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We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
Didn't say Will was doing something he didn't want to do, although there are probably complex layers affecting that too. But that the physical stuff was ever there bothers me and I don't think it should be ignored when looking at the whole scope that is the all-over-the-place EJill dynamic thus far. EJ sure looked like a bully to me in those instances.
Edited by elci525, Jun 25 2012, 10:22 AM.
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JamesScott_19
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Jun 25 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #193
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Don't get up. So how are you? What happened, eh? Let me guess, Stefano told you that you could fly,and you jumped off a building. HeHe It's funny right, no I'm sorry Bad EJ, I should'nt be that cruel!
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- elci525
- Jun 25 2012, 10:21 AM
- Quote:
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We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
Didn't say Will was doing something he didn't want to do, although there are probably complex layers affecting that too. But that the physical stuff was ever there bothers me and I don't think it should be ignored when looking at the whole scope that is the all-over-the-place EJill dynamic thus far. EJ sure looked like a bully to me in those instances. I think that Ej was just messing around with him, I don't think that meant he was bullying him. I don't define a bully as someone that can defend himself, Will has defended himself many times against Ej, not to mention him getting the upper hand coming soon, that does not classify bullying IMO.
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supercool74
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Jun 25 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #194
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- elci525
- Jun 25 2012, 10:21 AM
- Quote:
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We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
Didn't say Will was being forced to do something he didn't want to do, although there are probably complex layers affecting that too. But that they physical stuff was ever there bothers me and I don't think it should be ignored when looking at the whole scope that is the all-over-the-place EJill dynamic thus far. EJ sure looked like a bully to me in those instances. EJ DOES seem like a bully. The problem is that they haven't really shown Will to have a problem with it. He does get that kicked puppy look, but he doesn't look scared to me. That's why I'd almost think he had a crush, although that has never been established. Usually the person being bullied is scared of the bully and doesn't want to be around them. Will obviously wants to be around EJ for whatever reason. The fact is...he likes working for EJ. Yes, he's being blackmailed...but he still likes working for him. If EJ wasn't blackmailing him, Will would still work for him. EJ's actions do seem that of a bully...but Will does not act as a victim too much. He keeps coming back for more. In fact he seems to egg EJ on sometimes. He's late all the time knowing that EJ is going to yell at him or not answering his phone calls....and then he's smirking about it or smirking about something else (like telling Sami he knows they slept together). He doesn't act like he's afraid of EJ that much. EJ does tend to bully, but Will does not act as a bully victim.
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elci525
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Jun 25 2012, 10:32 AM
Post #195
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- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 10:24 AM
- elci525
- Jun 25 2012, 10:21 AM
- Quote:
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We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
Didn't say Will was doing something he didn't want to do, although there are probably complex layers affecting that too. But that the physical stuff was ever there bothers me and I don't think it should be ignored when looking at the whole scope that is the all-over-the-place EJill dynamic thus far. EJ sure looked like a bully to me in those instances.
I think that Ej was just messing around with him, I don't think that meant he was bullying him. I don't define a bully as someone that can defend himself, Will has defended himself many times against Ej, not to mention him getting the upper hand coming soon, that does not classify bullying IMO. I didn't see it as just "messing" with Will. And EJ was using physical force to make a point, on someone smaller and most likely weaker. That is never OK my book - EJ can get by perfectly just using his words and playing mind games. I feel like Will hasn't really defended himself against EJ - not really aside from a few snarky comments. That Will is gaining the upper hand now doesn't mean those previous instances didn't happen. And it doesn't change what they meant for me. But I am thrilled for Will for gaining the upper hand (although what that means and for how long remains to be seen); I have been wanting to see the tides change for awhile, esp. given some of EJ's treatment of Will. I'd like to see the power dynamic evens out a little bit.
Edited by elci525, Jun 25 2012, 10:35 AM.
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Ireland98
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Jun 25 2012, 10:36 AM
Post #196
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- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
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- Ejami79
- Jun 24 2012, 04:11 PM
The EJILL debate is hilarious. I think EJILL is so popular because their relationship has been well written and developed. The changing dynamics make sense. Will not only loves the perks & the power, but also the independence that EJ provided for him. EJ treats Will like an adult. Due to his association with EJ, Will has become more confident and happy. Will said at first he didn't want to work for EJ, but came to love it. I love that there was a transition from "hate" to "love" and it makes sense that Will was so upset when EJ fired him. Will had a lot going on in his life and EJ provided an outlet for Will. Will benefitted greatly from his association with EJ and I think EJ also enjoys the kinship. Plus Will has a natural dark side to him and with EJ he is able to tap into that side a bit more. I love dark Will too.
They threaten/blackmail each other to try to get more control, but there's also a dependency between the two. This is why EJILL have a complex relationship- there's different layers. I love that you don't know what's going to happen next or if there's going to be scenes where they're getting along, working together, scheming, threatening each other, or whatever. You know what you're going to get when Will has scenes with most other characters. So the EJILL dynamic is just more engaging to watch. I don't want to see EJILL get along all the time, though I enjoy the tender moments and when they're working together, but I want to see some angst too. I can see more betrayals, fights, and blackmail. But at the same time, see them supporting and protecting each other.
I could be wrong but I get the impression that haters of EJILL are basing their opinions based on other relationships. Lumis are jealous of the father/son type bond between EJILL, WilSon fans either want all of Will's storylines revolved around Sonny or don't like that the EJILL chemistry gets so much attention, and both Lumi & Ejoles see EJILL as an EJAMI connection. Does that sound about right or no?
I view EJILL as their own entity/dynamic and have a great consistent storyline that is fun to watch. I love that there's so much buzz and support for EJILL too! I hope Days is smart enough to keep writing for this popular and awesome dynamic duo!
I agree that is why I love their relationship, I don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
I see the bullying coming in when EJ, like, manhandles Will in the HTS or smacks him in the face and mouth. I see the bullying when he condescendingly hollers at Will, or even couches/defines the power dynamic inherent in the relationship, as it is now, with expressions like "I own you" or "I say jump and you say how high" and having Will repeat it like a monkey. And there is of course the blackmail EJ still has on Will, which could still frighten Will a little. Even though he has been cleared as a suspect due to his alibi, I can still see him being fearful about what EJ could expose about him (even though that might mean EJ would be implicating himself as an obstructor of justice, Will was a minor at the time), etc. That EJ treats Will like an adult is also debatable. He has given Will his independence, sorta, with a car and apartment -- but those are conditional and do not really belong to Will (so nothing very adult about that). He has given Will shady work to do, which was probably fun for Will, he liked the feeling of getting away with things, etc. Those are grown-up things to give Will to do, responsibility to expect him to be able to handle, etc. But I haven't seen EJ entrust him with these kinds of responsibilities lately. What was he last doing for EJ? Culling and collecting media items re: EJ? something liek that? Seems like busy/lackey work at the moment. Nothing very grown-up about that. And I also see Will just standing there and allowing himself to be screamed at with the same blank look/smirk on his face. As EJ's subordinate, I supposed he should take it..to an extent. But a lot of those scenes make me uncomfortable, I would like to see Will start to defend himself. - Quote:
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....for one I never saw Ej trying to replace Lucas as a Father. He respects his role as a Father but that does not mean that means that Will should stop working for Ej because of his reputation....I don't see any father/son bond....
I do. Perhaps it is happening subtly, but I do. Perhaps it's more a mentor/mentee relationship for now, but I can see it quickly crossing into something father/son-y. I see it happening right now, actually. It was even rather suggestively suggested when Sonny asked Will if his dad had been cool about Will being gay, Will said yes, Sonny said, he probably turned your mother around (something like that, I am paraphrasing from Friday's show...or is it from the day-ahead for Monday's show?? one of those). And Will said yes, but actually it was more EJ who talked to her, turned her around, etc. My blood boiled a bit after that. grrr. And EJ respects Lucas's role as a father? Hmmm, I am not so sure I believe that. I could be wrong, but that is my feeling. I dislike Ejill for many reasons, but I like them for others....I just want to see some tweaking. I like gray characters over black and white characters, so as I have said, I am enjoying seeing Will's character navigate these grayer, murkier waters. I am sure he likes the power that comes from working for EJ. I am sure he feels a sense of obligation to EJ for the job, etc. EJ has given him, but some of that "loyalty" is also motivated by his fear of what EJ might do should Will betray him. I don't like their to be affection, warmth or tenderness between the two. Respect and admiration is one thing, but the other I just could not stomach. I personally don't feel Will should feel "indebted" to EJ for much of anything...not the car, nor the apt, nor the keeping him out of jail, really, b/c I feel like I know the real reason EJ did that, and it wasn't selfless nor paternal nor altruistic. I think Will should hate EJ for what he has done to his family, and I want to see this come out more. Will hated him in the beginning, and I feel like that hatred should still exist. But Will has also liked working for EJ, so that complicated things....and maybe he has also been afforded a different look at EJ b/c he has seen how much EJ has lost recently. I say whatever, but I agree that could make Will even more conflicted about working/being around EJ. I just don't want to hear Will say he [EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen. Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing. Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying. Agreed. Will has had a lot of unstability in his life and working for EJ provided Will with a way for him to come into his own & have something in his life that is stable. Most people see Will as this sweet kid, but EJ treated Will like an adult and allows Will to be deceptive.
There has been a gradual development & mostly consistent writing for EJILL during the last 6 months: Will was angry, crying & depressed all the time (about EJAMI sex, Gabi break up, struggling with sexuality) Will reacted on his emotions, as he usually does, and tried to blackmail EJ EJ prevented Will from leaving Salem by making sure Will works for him At first Will complained about working for EJ. Will wouldn't admit it but he got a rush from stealing Abe's jobs plan. EJ gave Will a car Will realized a benefit of working for EJ was that it made Sami mad. From there Will changed his attitude and started to enjoy working for EJ Will got a kick out of the bribe stuff with Nicole. A sign that Will enjoys deceptive stuff During the stand off between EJ & Will when EJ revealed to Nicole about how Will shot EJ, Will threatened to tell Nicole about the EJAMI sex. EJ gave Will an apartment, which gave Will independence. Will told EJ he was impressed with how EJ usually gets what he wants- a sign of admiration We saw many characters try to convince Will to stop working for EJ. At first he didn't have a choice, but during the confrontation b/t Lucas/EJ/Will, EJ released Will, but at that point Will had come to appreciate the benefits of working for EJ and chose to stay to work him. Will told Sami that working for EJ was the best thing that's ever happened to him (stability, independence, perks, power, etc) EJ gave Will advice about coming out to Sami. EJ said that he's shown that Will can trust him and Will agreed. Will shared the secret that he deliberately told Rafe about the EJAMI sex EJ fired Will Will is a loose cannon and reacted with his emotions again/ confronted and perhaps shot Stefano. EJ bailed out Will and Will begged to have his job back. But for now, Will doesn't have the perks Will went to EJ for help in clearing his name for Stefano's murder We continue to see the personal bond that has developed between EJILL
This is just a synopsis of the development of EJILL relationship. I think there were key moments that did show the transitions of their relationship from Will hating EJ and not wanting to work for EJ to changing his attitude about EJ and enjoying his job. Not perfectly consistent but compared to some of the other storylines & insta romances, EJILL has had a pretty good development that makes sense.
We don't know what Will really thinks of EJ and vice versa, which is what makes them fun to watch. Is EJ just using Will or does Will really want to bring EJ down. I don't think it's either. They get a kick out of challenging each other & trying to have control but they need each other too. I think Will is going to threaten EJ with the paternity stuff but I don't think he'll actually take the info to the police or tell Chad. Plus EJ still has the info that Will shot EJ.
I don't know what will happen between EJILL which is part of the fun!
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LuvingLumi
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Jun 25 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #197
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Come on Ron, We are counting on YOU !!
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- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 10:13 AM
- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
- elci525
- Jun 24 2012, 09:03 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.[EJ] isn't so bad (bah), without that being balanced with an instance where Will realizes EJ IS that bad, and that continues the ping-ponging. A poster somewhere said the tide might change for Will if his involvement with EJ hurts Sonny in some way, if EJ hurts Sonny in some way, and I think that is accurate - I want to see that happen.
Will as a darker, gray character is great. But I also want to see him as loyal and defending his family at all costs, esp. against someone like EJ. So I hope, whatever dirt Will finds on EJ that he might use merely to be in control of EJ (which would be pretty satisfying to see), I hope he is at least partially truthful about wanting to bring EJ down. I can see it being about both things. And I can also see Will soften in his ardor to double-cross EJ, and then stiffen in his hatred once again. I can see this dynamic changing by the second. Some might call that conflicted and complex; some might call it schizophrenic and directionless. I can see it being both, depends on the writing.
Regardless, I would just like to see Will be more assertive, and flex those family loyalty muscles a bit more now that he is being tested a little.
Smacking him on the face side by side is not bullying to me, Will is not doing anything that he does not want to do. He can easily walk away but he chooses to stay, even telling his family that he enjoys working with him. If it was bullying then Will will would have been to scared to stand up to him and He has many times. He even tried blackmailing him with the Nicole secret, He stands up to him when he feels that Ej is being unreasonable but he also knows his place. Are we just forgetting that Ej was blackmailed first, it was not Will. It was Will that tried to get over but when the tables were turned, then Will met his match, no sympathy for him. He should no better before he tried to blackmail anyone, a Dimera at that. Defending his family from who? I hope you don't mean Sami because Will has made it clear that he can careless about how Sami feels about him working for Ej, or anyone for that matter. He likes what he do,I don't see why he needs to protect himself. In contrast I like Ej/Will for many reasons, one being is that they balance each other out. It is not unrealistic for two people that do not like each other to be working together, because of a working relationship they have. It is similar to Kate and Sami, they worked together to bring Madison down, they put aside their differences. Granted that Sami was playing Kate all along, it was a unique twist. I like the fact that Will can look to Ej about his next assignment, he behaves out of the normal. He is not boring or weak like he was before, but he actually does something that keeps my interest. Finally he is able to do what he wants, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it. Until I see Will being forced to work for Ej, I will never see it as bullying.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information.
He did not force him to do anything, Will was the one that blackmailed him first so if you are going to use that, you have to back to the original blackmail. Will can walk away from working with him but he chooses to stay. There is no force necessary,. He released him from the blackmail back around March I think, but I'm talking about NOW....he blackmailed him again when he bailed him out. He said that the bail out came with certain strings and when Will started getting smart about it, he went right in and told him that he could easily tell the cops that Will shot him in 2007 and making it easier for the SPD to believe that Will could possibly shoot to kill a man. Then he said, you'll have to do some things for me....and it started again. If he just wanted the guy to work for him then he wouldn't have even mentioned the shooting in 2007 AGAIN, payed his bail and given him the job would have sufficed.
we'll agree to disagree but I see it differently.
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supercool74
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Jun 25 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #198
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- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 10:39 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 10:13 AM
- LuvingLumi
- Jun 25 2012, 09:41 AM
- JamesScott_19
- Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepI don't see Ej bullying Will to do anything. He treats him as an adult, also he told him that he had the permission to leave but Will wanted to stay. I don't see Ej forcing Will to continue to work with him, Will seems to like the fact that he is working with him, not to mention the benefits he has.
but Ej is forcing Will to work with him now....he's blackmailing him with the information that he shot him and disclosing that would certainly lead to others believing that he could shoot to kill Stefano. This obviously was before the alibi but he did 'force' him again with that information.
He did not force him to do anything, Will was the one that blackmailed him first so if you are going to use that, you have to back to the original blackmail. Will can walk away from working with him but he chooses to stay. There is no force necessary,.
He released him from the blackmail back around March I think, but I'm talking about NOW....he blackmailed him again when he bailed him out. He said that the bail out came with certain strings and when Will started getting smart about it, he went right in and told him that he could easily tell the cops that Will shot him in 2007 and making it easier for the SPD to believe that Will could possibly shoot to kill a man. Then he said, you'll have to do some things for me....and it started again. If he just wanted the guy to work for him then he wouldn't have even mentioned the shooting in 2007 AGAIN, payed his bail and given him the job would have sufficed. we'll agree to disagree but I see it differently. EJ giving Will his job back probably would have been enough but I think EJ is punishing Will because Will broke up his marriage. Like he said, loyalty is very important to him. He bailed Will out and blackmailed him to work for him again...so Will doesn't get the car or the apartment or money anymore. I think he's just showing Will that there are consequences for his actions. I don't think EJ would bail him out and then just give him his job back with all the perks. He's still pissed off about Nicole. But he still wants Will around for some reason so this is how he did it. If he were just to give Will his job back, it's like saying it was okay for Will to do what he did. This way EJ is showing Will he still has the upper hand. I still say that Will would be working for EJ whether he was blackmailed or not, but I'm sure he'd like his perks back. :)
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elci525
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Jun 25 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #199
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- supercool74
- Jun 25 2012, 10:31 AM
- elci525
- Jun 25 2012, 10:21 AM
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We will have to agree to disagree because I don't see any physical bullying or Will doing anything that he does not wants to do.
Didn't say Will was being forced to do something he didn't want to do, although there are probably complex layers affecting that too. But that they physical stuff was ever there bothers me and I don't think it should be ignored when looking at the whole scope that is the all-over-the-place EJill dynamic thus far. EJ sure looked like a bully to me in those instances.
EJ DOES seem like a bully. The problem is that they haven't really shown Will to have a problem with it. He does get that kicked puppy look, but he doesn't look scared to me. That's why I'd almost think he had a crush, although that has never been established. Usually the person being bullied is scared of the bully and doesn't want to be around them. Will obviously wants to be around EJ for whatever reason. The fact is...he likes working for EJ. Yes, he's being blackmailed...but he still likes working for him. If EJ wasn't blackmailing him, Will would still work for him. EJ's actions do seem that of a bully...but Will does not act as a victim too much. He keeps coming back for more. In fact he seems to egg EJ on sometimes. He's late all the time knowing that EJ is going to yell at him or not answering his phone calls....and then he's smirking about it or smirking about something else (like telling Sami he knows they slept together). He doesn't act like he's afraid of EJ that much. EJ does tend to bully, but Will does not act as a bully victim. I still aver that EJ has acted like a bully within this dynamic. I am not of the mind that Will is a helpless "victim" exactly, but the hurt puppy look as you call it, the fact that he was soooooo upset about having double crossed EJ (I don't think it was only about the car and the perks, and I really don't believe he was just so genuinely upset that EJ was now heart-broken) evidences to me that there are moments where he is at least a little frightened or on uneasy footing. I just remember the way Will screeched and whimpered to EJ, "But Stefano maaaaaadddddddeeeeeeee me. I - I - I had no choice.....he mmaaaaaadddddddeeeeee me" etc. Makes me cringe a little still.
Maybe one can argue that Will likes to take the abuse, in some S and M-y kind of way. Ejill is sooooooooooo damn "sexy" after all. Who knows why Will is so willing to bend over and take it. Doesn't change the fact that EJ has acted like a bully in the ways I have cited, and that is part of the reason the EJill dynamic rubs me the wrong way at times.
But I also want to repeat, again, that I like the dynamic too. I have some issues with it - I think that is fair.
I am not convinced Will doesn't have a problem with some of EJ's treatment. Maybe I am just graphing my own opinions onto the situation, but I would be surprised if Will didn't have a problem with it. I think his wanting to turn the tables on EJ - whether it is just to have power over him - testifies to the fact that he has at least a little bit of a problem with it. Added to the fact that Will just wants to have power - has grown a hunger for it. And to the mix the possibility that he might want to bring EJ to justice a little bit too. There are likely lots of factors and motivators at play here. There could be subtle ways in which all of what's happened has affected Will - if anything, to motivate him to assert himself a bit more (the smirking doesn't count for me). And that is all I want to see - that is really ultimately all that I am saying. I am not a an Ejill hater - I have stated ad nauseam now the reasons why I like them together - but I am not an over-the-moon fan either. I don't like black and white characters, and I am not prone to too many black and white reactions either.
Edited by elci525, Jun 25 2012, 11:36 AM.
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DayDreamer
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Jun 25 2012, 01:42 PM
Post #200
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Fan of EJ+ABBY!
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- supercool74
- Jun 25 2012, 01:54 AM
Just to add...they would have to come up with something really interesting for Will and Lucas to do to spend more time together. I liked the idea of Lucas and Will (and maybe Sami) working together to bring EJ down or something along those lines. Otherwise any father/son scenes would get old after a while. There has to be a story, not just hanging out together. I get the appeal of doing that,... its just that EJ is now completely alone. Nobodys is on his side or consider him as a friend now that Lexie and Stefano is gone,.. If everyone + Will, Sami and Lucas would go against him. At one point EJ would crack. That guy has been in so much pain that I am starting to feel pity for the guy. I don't count Chad as true Dimera.
I would get Lucas and Will maybe try to do something,.. but yeah.
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