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Thursday, December 13th Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Dec 12 2012, 02:35 PM (4,777 Views)
annie21


SocRMum1
Dec 13 2012, 10:51 AM
esp13
Dec 13 2012, 10:24 AM
I never said Gabi or Will were sympathetic. I simply disagreed that Will was the only person to express any concern for the child. If that was the case, Gabi would have had the abortion. She clearly wants this baby and wants to raise it with Nick. I think part of that motivation is that she believes the child will be better off that way. Yes, Nick is controlling and an asshat. Doesn't mean he doesn't truly believe the child is better off with him and Gabi.

And I don't disagree that they haven't really taken Will's feelings into consideration. They are being short-sighted jerks in many ways. I just don't think that means they don't care about the baby. Not caring about Will's feelings is not the same as not caring about what is best for the baby (in their minds).
Agreed. I can't say that I've seen any more concern for the baby coming from Will than I have from Gabi and/or Nick. If anything, Nick was the one who immediately didn't want Gabi to have the abortion - and he does seem to genuinely want to raise the child. Is he being controlling and borderline creepy? Yes - but I don't think that is what is motivating him as far as the child is concerned.
Just pointing out that not wanting a woman to have an abortion (or that woman choosing not to have one) does not equate to actually caring about the child. There are a lot of people who wouldn't want Gabi or any woman to have an abortion, based on their moral or religious beliefs. That doesn't mean they will actually love that particular child or be concerned about its best interests once it arrives. Will went along with it at first, because he supported Gabi's right to choose and because he was in shock. But it seemed to me that when he tried to stop it, it wasn't on moral grounds, but rather because he really had decided that he wanted the baby to be in his life. I didn't get that from any of the others -- even Gabi. Gabi basically was too scared to go through with it, because the procedure itself is scary and because she was thinking about how she would be judged by the church and by her family. For her -- and for the others, it was a moral equation more than wanting the child itself. Maybe that's a fine distinction for many, but that's how I saw it.

In general, Nick and Gabi come across to me as being caught up in the trappings of marriage and family (getting married in the church, etc.) than about what it really will mean for the baby. They are in some sort of moralistic fantasy world. They barely know each other. They have not a clue about what loving and caring for a baby entails. And Gabi especially seems to be more about pleasing her new-found lover Nick, and about not losing face in front of her family, friends, and the church.

To sum it up, imo, Nick and Gabi's concern about the child seems to be on the level of an abstract moral concept of right and wrong, whereas Will's ruminations and concerns do seem more focused on how the child itself will fare in this world. That's my take, anyway.

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Honeybees
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annie21
Dec 13 2012, 11:24 AM
SocRMum1
Dec 13 2012, 10:51 AM
esp13
Dec 13 2012, 10:24 AM
I never said Gabi or Will were sympathetic. I simply disagreed that Will was the only person to express any concern for the child. If that was the case, Gabi would have had the abortion. She clearly wants this baby and wants to raise it with Nick. I think part of that motivation is that she believes the child will be better off that way. Yes, Nick is controlling and an asshat. Doesn't mean he doesn't truly believe the child is better off with him and Gabi.

And I don't disagree that they haven't really taken Will's feelings into consideration. They are being short-sighted jerks in many ways. I just don't think that means they don't care about the baby. Not caring about Will's feelings is not the same as not caring about what is best for the baby (in their minds).
Agreed. I can't say that I've seen any more concern for the baby coming from Will than I have from Gabi and/or Nick. If anything, Nick was the one who immediately didn't want Gabi to have the abortion - and he does seem to genuinely want to raise the child. Is he being controlling and borderline creepy? Yes - but I don't think that is what is motivating him as far as the child is concerned.
Just pointing out that not wanting a woman to have an abortion (or that woman choosing not to have one) does not equate to actually caring about the child. There are a lot of people who wouldn't want Gabi or any woman to have an abortion, based on their moral or religious beliefs. That doesn't mean they will actually love that particular child or be concerned about its best interests once it arrives. Will went along with it at first, because he supported Gabi's right to choose and because he was in shock. But it seemed to me that when he tried to stop it, it wasn't on moral grounds, but rather because he really had decided that he wanted the baby to be in his life. I didn't get that from any of the others -- even Gabi. Gabi basically was too scared to go through with it, because the procedure itself is scary and because she was thinking about how she would be judged by the church and by her family. For her -- and for the others, it was a moral equation more than wanting the child itself. Maybe that's a fine distinction for many, but that's how I saw it.

In general, Nick and Gabi come across to me as being caught up in the trappings of marriage and family (getting married in the church, etc.) than about what it really will mean for the baby. They are in some sort of moralistic fantasy world. They barely know each other. They have not a clue about what loving and caring for a baby entails. And Gabi especially seems to be more about pleasing her new-found lover Nick, and about not losing face in front of her family, friends, and the church.

To sum it up, imo, Nick and Gabi's concern about the child seems to be on the level of an abstract moral concept of right and wrong, whereas Will's ruminations and concerns do seem more focused on how the child itself will fare in this world. That's my take, anyway.

Yes! You've articulated it perfectly. Though, I don't think anyone in this debate is too far off the mark - nothing is completely clear cut in this story. It's - gasp - being written as complicated. Gabi's not an outright villain as far as Will's feelings concerned, but she is pushing him out of his child's life when it's pretty clear that's not what he wants. Will is not sticking up for himself, although the writers are giving him plenty of plausible reasons why he wouldn't. As for Nick, I still think he's the bad guy here. When he thought it was Chad's baby, he wasn't exactly a loving boyfriend. And I will say that many men have been using pregnancy to control the women in their lives since the beginning of time, which is why some (only some) of them are so concerned with making sure birth control and abortion are not available to women. It's not always about the kid, but about making sure the woman can't leave and must be economically dependent on her husband/boyfriend. With Will around as a potential source of support, it's not going to be as easy for Nick to tell Gabi what to do and keep her barefoot at home. Again, I'm loving Blake's performance in this and think he's one of the very best things on the show right now.
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annie21


I should hasten to add that I realize Will isn't all about the child either. He's selfish when it comes to worrying about the impact the news will have on his relationship to Sonny. (That's one of the weakest parts of the story in my view, because they haven't provided a good enough reason why he should think that.) In any case, if they all were thinking about what's best for the baby, they would at least consider putting it up for adoption where it could be raised by a more mature, more financially stable, and more loving couple. I'm inclined to believe that Gabi and Will would go in that direction if Nick weren't in the picture. And when this all blows up at the wedding, maybe that's where they'll eventually end up.


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Honeybees
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Other thoughts after watching live today:

Dannifer is utterly intolerable. Without the fast forward button, it's a kind of torture.

Kristen and Brady. So wrong. So much awesomeness. She better realize what she has there. And I think all the actors are having a blast with the storyline, too.
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Will&Sonny


I agree with Honeybees and annie21. IMO, not only is Will the only one who has shown genuine concern for the baby's well-being, he's also the only sympathetic character in the ordeal. Gabi still doesn't seem like she truly wants the baby -- she just wants Nick -- and Nick just wants to control Gabi and keep the baby away from its gay father. (I realize that Nick hasn't necessarily expressed that last motivation on-screen, but that's how I'm interpreting it based on what we know about Nick's beliefs.)

That's just my opinion, though, obviously.
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Honeybees
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Will&Sonny
Dec 13 2012, 04:31 PM
I agree with Honeybees and annie21. IMO, not only is Will the only one who has shown genuine concern for the baby's well-being, he's also the only sympathetic character in the ordeal. Gabi still doesn't seem like she truly wants the baby -- she just wants Nick -- and Nick just wants to control Gabi and keep the baby away from its gay father. (I realize that Nick hasn't necessarily expressed that last motivation on-screen, but that's how I'm interpreting it based on what we know about Nick's beliefs.)

That's just my opinion, though, obviously.
I think Gabi hasn't really had time to stop and consider the baby, either. Between Nick and Rafe (can I call them the misogynist brothers-in-law)? Gabi's body and life choices are apparently not up for debate. They will tell her what the right thing to do is.

The character of Gabi has been written inconsistent. She really was a full on villain during the Andrew debacle - and through this storyline, I'm not exactly what we're supposed to think of her. But I'm still firmly on #teamwill and I'm betting at the end of this Will is going to end up with custody of his child, with or without Sonny.

But there's lots of different beats being played, that's for sure.
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esp13
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Will&Sonny
Dec 13 2012, 04:31 PM
I agree with Honeybees and annie21. IMO, not only is Will the only one who has shown genuine concern for the baby's well-being, he's also the only sympathetic character in the ordeal. Gabi still doesn't seem like she truly wants the baby -- she just wants Nick -- and Nick just wants to control Gabi and keep the baby away from its gay father. (I realize that Nick hasn't necessarily expressed that last motivation on-screen, but that's how I'm interpreting it based on what we know about Nick's beliefs.)

That's just my opinion, though, obviously.
I don't disagree, for the most part. I do think Gabi has shown more desire for the baby than you, but that's a minor point. As for Nick, if part of his motivation is to keep the baby from his gay father, then he is motivated by what he believes is best for the baby. We can disagree with the correctness of that motivation, but he's still motivated by his concern for the kid.
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Will&Sonny


esp13
Dec 13 2012, 04:36 PM
As for Nick, if part of his motivation is to keep the baby from his gay father, then he is motivated by what he believes is best for the baby. We can disagree with the correctness of that motivation, but he's still motivated by his concern for the kid.
That's not how I look at it -- I see it more as hate than as concern for the baby (i.e., he doesn't care about the baby -- the baby is simply a means to an end; the true motivation is to not allow Will to have any influence on another person's life...when he thought that the baby was Chad's, he certainly didn't care about it) -- but I can see your point.
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supercool74
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I just feel so bad for Will. He really needs to talk to someone about all of this besides Gabi/Nick. I almost wanted him to open up to EJ, only because he was actually asking and could tell something was wrong. Of course, I think EJ would probably be the worst person to confide in, but still. Gabi and Nick have each other. Sonny has Chad to talk to about Gabi's whole kidnapping mess...as well as Justin, kind of. I really wish Will could confide in someone who is not directly involved in this mess. Either Lucas, or Marlena. Maybe even Uncle Eric the priest. Will is just breaking my heart with how alone he looks.
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esp13
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Will&Sonny
Dec 13 2012, 04:54 PM
esp13
Dec 13 2012, 04:36 PM
As for Nick, if part of his motivation is to keep the baby from his gay father, then he is motivated by what he believes is best for the baby. We can disagree with the correctness of that motivation, but he's still motivated by his concern for the kid.
That's not how I look at it -- I see it more as hate than as concern for the baby (i.e., he doesn't care about the baby -- the baby is simply a means to an end; the true motivation is to not allow Will to have any influence on another person's life...when he thought that the baby was Chad's, he certainly didn't care about it) -- but I can see your point.
I don't think we're really disagreeing, just stating things differently. But I'm not sure we can state that Nick didn't care about the baby when he thought Chad was the father. His anger was certainly at the forefront because he thought Gabi had lied to him, but it didn't last long enough for me to conclude that he wouldn't have cared.

And, to be clear, I think Nick is wrong in every way in his views on homosexuality, but I still think HE thinks he's doing what is best for the baby. And I appreciate that the show isn't painting everything in stark black and white stereotypes.
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AFaithL


Today's show was "eh". Gabi is a bitch. The Kristen/Jennifer scenes were awkward and stilted.
John is pissing me off talking so back-handedly about Marlena. Dude needs to get his head out of his ass. The Sami/Hope scenes were okay, but I don't like this new "brooding" Rafe.
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lysie
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I got distracted while watching today.

Sami's comments about Gabi being family are annoying.
Everything about Chad is annoying.
Daniel said something that made me laugh.
Kayla cracked me up when she was talking to Jennifer.
I hate it when characters talk to other characters that aren't even there.
I really liked the way KA played her scenes today.
I can't buy Kristen walking around dressed like that and having a campy vixen act when this is how I remember her.
Posted Image
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Hamilton
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Will needs to shit or get off the pot. One day he's all about the kid being passed around like he was as a child and the next it's the flip side with his mom's lies blowing up in her face. Dude it's your choice, make it and then live with it.

Well said, Aunt Hope. Sami is being idiotic. I'd like Sami to exit the stage until her stupidity fog lifts and we have a character worth spending the time following.

I think this is the best Brady has been. I'm thoroughly amused by the whole Kristen/Brady combination and hope the deception by Kristen continues without her falling for him. I want to see some evil plans take root and grow toward a great climax.

Too much time spent on Daniel, Jennifer and Maggie. I'm just not invested.

Ej sure is a swell guy now. And, boring as hell.

I hate that they are having Rafe spending all his time floating around HTS. He's a cop so give him an assignment to be working on and an office to do it in. It's bad enough to slam him in this repetitive triangle crap, but to strip him of his professional identity to boot is really rotten.
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granolagirl
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lysie
Dec 13 2012, 10:56 PM
I can't buy Kristen walking around dressed like that and having a campy vixen act when this is how I remember her.
Posted Image
EXACTLY.

God bless you for posting that.
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DayDreamer
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Fan of EJ+ABBY!

Is it only me ... but I am actually liking Brady and Kristen as lovers A LOT. I am sad though cus I get the feeling that Kristen is only using Brady to get to John,.. which is so old and predictable. Can't they have her start loving Brady for once?
Edited by DayDreamer, Dec 14 2012, 06:33 AM.
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lysie
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Hologram
Dec 14 2012, 06:32 AM
Is it only me ... but I am actually liking Brady and Kristen as lovers A LOT. I am sad though cus I get the feeling that Kristen is only using Brady to get to John,.. which is so old and predictable. Can't they have her start loving Brady for once?
Based on posts, I think there are only a few of us who don't like it. And based on spoilers, I think that's supposed to be what happens.
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camera shy


I hope Kristen ends up falling for Brady and she ends up losing him with all her stupid games. Right now she's definitely playing him and I hate when a woman acts all smug when she knows a man is attracted to her. She probably won't have the good common sense to take a minute to realize she could have a real relationship with Brady that she'll never have with John.
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blueskies
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lysie
Dec 14 2012, 09:06 AM
Hologram
Dec 14 2012, 06:32 AM
Is it only me ... but I am actually liking Brady and Kristen as lovers A LOT. I am sad though cus I get the feeling that Kristen is only using Brady to get to John,.. which is so old and predictable. Can't they have her start loving Brady for once?
Based on posts, I think there are only a few of us who don't like it. And based on spoilers, I think that's supposed to be what happens.
Yeah, I'm trying to enjoy them while they last. No way they're "forever" but I really love them now.

And there must be something wrong with me, because I'm more worried about Kristen being hurt in this than I am Brady, lol.

Edited to add, I can see why some people don't like them because of their history. I wouldn't want Shawn D and Billie together, and that's basically what they are.
Edited by blueskies, Dec 14 2012, 09:14 AM.
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AFaithL


Hologram
Dec 14 2012, 06:32 AM
Is it only me ... but I am actually liking Brady and Kristen as lovers A LOT. I am sad though cus I get the feeling that Kristen is only using Brady to get to John,.. which is so old and predictable. Can't they have her start loving Brady for once?
It's their chemistry. On paper, it shouldn't work. But Eileen and Eric are just too good together. Chemistry triumphs everything else in my book.
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lysie
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blueskies
Dec 14 2012, 09:11 AM
lysie
Dec 14 2012, 09:06 AM
Hologram
Dec 14 2012, 06:32 AM
Is it only me ... but I am actually liking Brady and Kristen as lovers A LOT. I am sad though cus I get the feeling that Kristen is only using Brady to get to John,.. which is so old and predictable. Can't they have her start loving Brady for once?
Based on posts, I think there are only a few of us who don't like it. And based on spoilers, I think that's supposed to be what happens.
Yeah, I'm trying to enjoy them while they last. No way they're "forever" but I really love them now.

And there must be something wrong with me, because I'm more worried about Kristen being hurt in this than I am Brady, lol.

Edited to add, I can see why some people don't like them because of their history. I wouldn't want Shawn D and Billie together, and that's basically what they are.
I've gotten over my issues with their history and I'd actually really like it if they'd just own it and have one of them flashback to a little Brady/Kristen scene. I'm not sure when I got past that but I did. I don't think they have chemistry at all.
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