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Friday, December 28th Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Dec 27 2012, 02:17 PM (8,378 Views)
Kerenush
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ScorpioQueen
Dec 28 2012, 10:50 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:34 PM
guessgirl
Dec 28 2012, 07:28 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:11 PM
Hate how Nick and Gabi treat Will. They can talk to each other and he can't talk to anyone.

And what's wrong with Nick? Does he really think he has a say? I wish no one will hire him.
Will can't say anything because that was the deal and he agree to it. If he doesn't like it tell them to f-off than and tell the truth!

Nothing wrong with Nick negotiating with Kate to get what he wants. She was the one who approach him to work for her because she knew he applied a job with Sami. She's just pissed because he's not falling in line and kissing her ass.


He didn't exactly agree to the deal. He was pushed and didn't have much choice...

There is a borderline between negotiation and being too self-righteous. Yes I know that Sami and Kate's companies are in competition but it's not that I don't agree with him wanting what he wants but the way he delivers what he wants...
I disagree that Will was pushed into giving up his child. Every time he and Gabi discussed being co parents, Will lamented that he didn't want his child shuffled between two homes. As it was everyone assumed Nick was the father and he asked Will to make a decision. Maybe Nick manipulated things by asking Gabi to marry him but if Will had the guts to be honest it wouldn't have mattered.

Will needs to check himself. He wants to do what's best for the baby? Well at first he thought the best thing was for the baby not to be shuffled between families. Now he's got an about face because he's realizing what exactly that means. He is the one being selfish. He cannot have the privileges of fatherhood unless he's willing to take on the responsibilities, namely telling the truth and facing the consequences.
Well maybe pushed into wasn't the right word but Will ultimately thinks that Gabi should be the one to make the decision... but I think Will is finally realizing that the decision isn't necessarily good for him... He's having second thoughts like he should've. I think that every parent should be helping out raising the baby whatever it was a plan baby or not... In Will and Gabi's case, Will thought that if he agrees with Gabi's decision then it would be good for both of them without even considering what the results may be... Plus Gabi and Nick still have each other where they can comfort each other about the decision.. Will doesn't which is why he's having second thoughts.
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Snowing Fan
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Kristen,Marlena doesn't need nor probably want to hear about her step son's sex life,Ew,tacky much.
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esp13
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Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
Honeybees
Dec 28 2012, 09:50 PM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:34 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
He totally had a choice. All he had to do was say no to Nick's idea, tell Gabi he intends to be a part of his child's life, and tell Sonny (and his family) the truth. There is nothing Nick and Gabi could have done to stop him. Hell, there is nothing they can do to stop him now. I don't care how pushy Nick and Gabi are being, this one is on Will. I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but that doesn't make him a victim.
He may not be a victim, but he is a hell of a lot more sympathetic that Gabi and Nick. He's been trying to respect Gabi's choices and do what's right since the moment he found out. He's second guessing himself, which is totally understandable now that he's facing up to the reality that someone else will be raising his child. Parents who give their children up for adoption are given deep counseling to make sure of they are comfortable with the choice. Will didn't allow himself to get counseling, and that's on him. But I sure as hell have more sympathy for him that Nick and Gabi, who seem absolutely comfortable with cutting Will out despite Will's growing discomfort.
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
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Romancer66


esp13
Dec 28 2012, 11:45 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
Honeybees
Dec 28 2012, 09:50 PM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
He may not be a victim, but he is a hell of a lot more sympathetic that Gabi and Nick. He's been trying to respect Gabi's choices and do what's right since the moment he found out. He's second guessing himself, which is totally understandable now that he's facing up to the reality that someone else will be raising his child. Parents who give their children up for adoption are given deep counseling to make sure of they are comfortable with the choice. Will didn't allow himself to get counseling, and that's on him. But I sure as hell have more sympathy for him that Nick and Gabi, who seem absolutely comfortable with cutting Will out despite Will's growing discomfort.
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
There's only one victim in this tired scenario: the hapless bun in Gabi's oven. All the other direct participants are being stupid, cowardly, or controlling. Which is why I can't take any interest in this story because I have no sympathy for Gabi, Will, or Nick. Their combined idiocy makes it impossible for me to root for any of them.
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darraholic
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The Queen

I really enjoyed today's episode minus the cheese factor that was Daniel & Jennifer.

Loved the Kate/Sonny scenes. I was hoping Kate would offer Nick a poisoned apple. I do feel bad for what Will's going through, but I am enjoying Nick & Gabi villainous ways.

The highlight was Kristen & Marlena. Deidre Hall & Eileen Davidson just light up the screen. Nobody has better chemistry then these two divas. Marlena's slap and Kristen's gloating had the fan boy in me rising up. The show is seriously stupid if they think taking Marlena out of Kristen's orbit will give the show any success. You can have Kristen in other storylines, but Marlena should always be near trying her best to make sure Kristen doesn't get any happiness.

Kristen & Brady are also hot. I might just give up my Sabe membership to pimp them more. Might.
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Ireland98


Romancer66
Dec 29 2012, 12:01 AM
There's only one victim in this tired scenario: the hapless bun in Gabi's oven. All the other direct participants are being stupid, cowardly, or controlling. Which is why I can't take any interest in this story because I have no sympathy for Gabi, Will, or Nick. Their combined idiocy makes it impossible for me to root for any of them.
Thank you and I agree! This is definitely one of the dumbest stories I've seen on Days. It would be sad for me to root for the out of character homophobe Nick, or the idiot Gabi, or the out of character Will. I only sympathize with the baby...and us viewers!
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Will&Sonny


esp13
Dec 28 2012, 11:45 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bully

[3.] bully
verb
bul·lied bul·ly·ing
Definition of BULLY
transitive verb
1
: to treat abusively
2
: to affect by means of force or coercion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coercing

co·erce
transitive verb \kō-ˈərs\
co·ercedco·erc·ing
Definition of COERCE
1
: to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2
: to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

I would say that the use of the word "bullied" is appropriate in the context of my previous post. However, I will concede that bringing school bullying into the argument probably changed the context for some people, when I simply intended to use it as an analogy. When you have to resort to pulling out a dictionary to get someone to understand the point that you were trying to make, it's usually a good indication that you could have done a better job of making said point. :wink:

Yes, you can apply the word "bullied" to many situations using the definition that I'm referring to. That changes nothing, IMO. It's still a proper use of the word, and it accurately describes what Will has been subjected to on-screen. If you'd prefer a different term, "strong-armed" is basically the same thing.

Either way, I still stand behind what I originally said. I do believe that Will is the clear victim in this situation. Obviously his level of victimization isn't the same as that of someone who is being physically abused, and I was never really trying to suggest otherwise, but there are different levels of victimization. The fact that one is greater than another doesn't make the "lesser" victim's plight any less relevant. More importantly, and more to the true point of my previous post, being able to "simply" tell the truth to end your plight does not bar you from being able to be considered a victim, IMO.

Yes, Will can choose to end the situation at any time. Yes, Will is the victim in the situation. To me, both of these statements are true, and one does not contradict the other. :shrug: But that's just my opinion, and I'm happy to agree to disagree!
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JessicaLeigh
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"You're an ex-con with a less than ingratiating personality." Yes, Kate. Tell it like it is. You have been missed!

I have realized that I hate Nick. Loathe and abhor him. I was so excited about having him back and rooting for him against Chad, but now he's just an enormous prick. What's happening here? Chad less of a douche than Nick...? The world has turned upside down for me.

Thoroughly enjoyed Marlena's run-in with Kristen.

There have been some really enjoyable bits of dialogue lately. I like it.
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JessicaLeigh
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Also, Jenn's run-in with the lady from the hospital started out great. I am annoyed that these are always interrupted by someone coming to her rescue and fighting her battles, though. We get that little bit of catharsis only to have it smashed to smithereens by a non-entity like Billie.
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Mason


Marlena and Kristen's run-in was the most entertaining couple of scenes I think I've seen on this show in a long time. Just keep these two together please and forget dullard Brady.

Nothing about his scenes in this episode even resembled the real Nick Fallon to me. I think Nick offering to be the father of Gabi's baby is perfectly in character. I don't think his douchey retro-80s yuppie attitude is in character at all.
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esp13
Member Avatar


Will&Sonny
Dec 29 2012, 12:53 AM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 11:45 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bully

[3.] bully
verb
bul·lied bul·ly·ing
Definition of BULLY
transitive verb
1
: to treat abusively
2
: to affect by means of force or coercion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coercing

co·erce
transitive verb \kō-ˈərs\
co·ercedco·erc·ing
Definition of COERCE
1
: to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2
: to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

I would say that the use of the word "bullied" is appropriate in the context of my previous post. However, I will concede that bringing school bullying into the argument probably changed the context for some people, when I simply intended to use it as an analogy. When you have to resort to pulling out a dictionary to get someone to understand the point that you were trying to make, it's usually a good indication that you could have done a better job of making said point. :wink:

Yes, you can apply the word "bullied" to many situations using the definition that I'm referring to. That changes nothing, IMO. It's still a proper use of the word, and it accurately describes what Will has been subjected to on-screen. If you'd prefer a different term, "strong-armed" is basically the same thing.

Either way, I still stand behind what I originally said. I do believe that Will is the clear victim in this situation. Obviously his level of victimization isn't the same as that of someone who is being physically abused, and I was never really trying to suggest otherwise, but there are different levels of victimization. The fact that one is greater than another doesn't make the "lesser" victim's plight any less relevant. More importantly, and more to the true point of my previous post, being able to "simply" tell the truth to end your plight does not bar you from being able to be considered a victim, IMO.

Yes, Will can choose to end the situation at any time. Yes, Will is the victim in the situation. To me, both of these statements are true, and one does not contradict the other. :shrug: But that's just my opinion, and I'm happy to agree to disagree!
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe will has been coerced into anything. He was not threatened or coerced, IMO. I stand by my position that if Will is a victim of bullying in this situation, then so is everybody who ever let anybody talk them into doing something they didn't really want to do. I disagree completely with that definition and with the idea that Will is any kind of victim in all of this.
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peaches179


Mason
Dec 29 2012, 10:24 AM
Marlena and Kristen's run-in was the most entertaining couple of scenes I think I've seen on this show in a long time. Just keep these two together please and forget dullard Brady.


I agree.
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SocRMum1
Member Avatar
Much prefers sweevil, snarky EJ over Father Figure Fucktard Eejiot.

esp13
Dec 29 2012, 10:32 AM
Will&Sonny
Dec 29 2012, 12:53 AM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 11:45 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bully

[3.] bully
verb
bul·lied bul·ly·ing
Definition of BULLY
transitive verb
1
: to treat abusively
2
: to affect by means of force or coercion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coercing

co·erce
transitive verb \kō-ˈərs\
co·ercedco·erc·ing
Definition of COERCE
1
: to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2
: to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>

I would say that the use of the word "bullied" is appropriate in the context of my previous post. However, I will concede that bringing school bullying into the argument probably changed the context for some people, when I simply intended to use it as an analogy. When you have to resort to pulling out a dictionary to get someone to understand the point that you were trying to make, it's usually a good indication that you could have done a better job of making said point. :wink:

Yes, you can apply the word "bullied" to many situations using the definition that I'm referring to. That changes nothing, IMO. It's still a proper use of the word, and it accurately describes what Will has been subjected to on-screen. If you'd prefer a different term, "strong-armed" is basically the same thing.

Either way, I still stand behind what I originally said. I do believe that Will is the clear victim in this situation. Obviously his level of victimization isn't the same as that of someone who is being physically abused, and I was never really trying to suggest otherwise, but there are different levels of victimization. The fact that one is greater than another doesn't make the "lesser" victim's plight any less relevant. More importantly, and more to the true point of my previous post, being able to "simply" tell the truth to end your plight does not bar you from being able to be considered a victim, IMO.

Yes, Will can choose to end the situation at any time. Yes, Will is the victim in the situation. To me, both of these statements are true, and one does not contradict the other. :shrug: But that's just my opinion, and I'm happy to agree to disagree!
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe will has been coerced into anything. He was not threatened or coerced, IMO. I stand by my position that if Will is a victim of bullying in this situation, then so is everybody who ever let anybody talk them into doing something they didn't really want to do. I disagree completely with that definition and with the idea that Will is any kind of victim in all of this.
Agreed. And to take it a step further, I don't quite buy that Will has been talked into anything he didn't want to do in all of this. He's waffled back and forth between what he wants and what he thinks he should probably do - and that seems to be the real conflict for him. Nick and Gabi may be keying in on that - but ultimately it's Will's indecisiveness that even makes that a possibility.
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spartan
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I don't even get WHY Will has a conflict. Perhaps I've missed it which is entirely possible. Is it because he doesn't want to be a father at this stage in his life? Is it because he's afraid of losing Sonny? I don't get it.

Add to that I can't stand CB's one-note portrayal of Gabi and this version of Nick 2.0 seriously sucks. So does the two second slammed together Nabi relationship.

This baby story needs to end now!
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Angelsmile


Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:11 PM
Hate how Nick and Gabi treat Will. They can talk to each other and he can't talk to anyone.

And what's wrong with Nick? Does he really think he has a say? I wish no one will hire him.
I hate to say it, but Will gave Nick a say. When he stepped back and said you can raise my child as your own he gave Nick all the say he needed. Will can't have it both ways. The parents have the power to make the decisions and until he is ready to claim responsibility as a parent why should he have the priviledges.
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peaches179


Angelsmile
Dec 29 2012, 12:43 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:11 PM
Hate how Nick and Gabi treat Will. They can talk to each other and he can't talk to anyone.

And what's wrong with Nick? Does he really think he has a say? I wish no one will hire him.
I hate to say it, but Will gave Nick a say. When he stepped back and said you can raise my child as your own he gave Nick all the say he needed. Will can't have it both ways. The parents have the power to make the decisions and until he is ready to claim responsibility as a parent why should he have the priviledges.

Exactly! He can't have it both ways.
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Angelsmile


esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:34 PM
guessgirl
Dec 28 2012, 07:28 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:11 PM
Hate how Nick and Gabi treat Will. They can talk to each other and he can't talk to anyone.

And what's wrong with Nick? Does he really think he has a say? I wish no one will hire him.
Will can't say anything because that was the deal and he agree to it. If he doesn't like it tell them to f-off than and tell the truth!

Nothing wrong with Nick negotiating with Kate to get what he wants. She was the one who approach him to work for her because she knew he applied a job with Sami. She's just pissed because he's not falling in line and kissing her ass.


He didn't exactly agree to the deal. He was pushed and didn't have much choice...

There is a borderline between negotiation and being too self-righteous. Yes I know that Sami and Kate's companies are in competition but it's not that I don't agree with him wanting what he wants but the way he delivers what he wants...
He totally had a choice. All he had to do was say no to Nick's idea, tell Gabi he intends to be a part of his child's life, and tell Sonny (and his family) the truth. There is nothing Nick and Gabi could have done to stop him. Hell, there is nothing they can do to stop him now. I don't care how pushy Nick and Gabi are being, this one is on Will. I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but that doesn't make him a victim.
Why can't I like a comment more than once when I love it this much?
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Angelsmile


esp13
Dec 28 2012, 11:45 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 28 2012, 11:23 PM
Honeybees
Dec 28 2012, 09:50 PM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
He may not be a victim, but he is a hell of a lot more sympathetic that Gabi and Nick. He's been trying to respect Gabi's choices and do what's right since the moment he found out. He's second guessing himself, which is totally understandable now that he's facing up to the reality that someone else will be raising his child. Parents who give their children up for adoption are given deep counseling to make sure of they are comfortable with the choice. Will didn't allow himself to get counseling, and that's on him. But I sure as hell have more sympathy for him that Nick and Gabi, who seem absolutely comfortable with cutting Will out despite Will's growing discomfort.
What Honeybees said. Yes, Will has a choice (well, as much of a choice as someone can have when they are at the mercy of writers who want to extend the reveal until X date for plot purposes, anyway), but I do think that he's ultimately going to choose to reveal that he's the father, so that's a bit of a moot point to me.

However, Will has always been willing to accept responsibility for the baby. Even if it inconveniences his life. Even if it ruins his relationship with Sonny. Even if it means that he has to drop out of college and get a dead-end job. Always.

Nick and Gabi have been, and still are, manipulating Will into doing what is best for Nick and Gabi. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about broken homes. They have repeatedly preyed on his insecurities about his relationship with Sonny. They barely gave him any time to decide for himself what he wanted to do -- they offered this "solution" and then hovered over him, applying repeated pressure and not allowing him any privacy whatsoever, until he finally gave them the answer that they wanted him to give. They have repeatedly suggested that letting Nick raise the child would be in the child's best interests (and Will is, as far as I'm concerned, the only one who is truly coming across as being more concerned about the child's welfare than he is about his own selfish desires). Gabi, whom Will truly cares about and feels responsible for, has repeatedly insisted that Will needs to give up his child because that is what she wants -- knowing perfectly well that Will wants to make Gabi happy.

So yes -- Will has a choice. Will can stop this at any time. But I disagree with the assertion that this fact means that he cannot be seen as the victim. Will is being bullied into taking a specific course of action at the moment. Saying that he's not a victim because he could choose to tell the truth at any time is, to me, like saying that a person who is being bullied at school is not a victim because he could choose to report the bullying to the school principal at any time. (I have a different analogy that I'd love to make here, but I'll refrain from doing so because it might cause a huge derailment.)

As I've said before...if Nick and Gabi had just said to Will, "We have this idea about Nick raising the baby. Take some time to think about it and get back to us when you've made your decision. No pressure," and Will had agreed to go along with the plan without being manipulated or pressured into making that decision, that would have been an entirely different matter, but that's not what happened, and that is why Will's the victim and the only sympathetic character in this scenario, IMO.
I absolutely disagree with the idea that Will is being bullied. He's not being threatened in any way. He's not being teased or made fun of. Nothing that Gabi and Nick are doing remotely reaches the level of bullying. He's being emotionally manipulated, but he's also an adult who can choose not to be subject to that manipulation. To call what is happening with Will bullying is to say that pretty much every conflict on a soap is bullying. And I simply fundamentally disagree with that idea. Bullying is a serious issue. Will refusing to make a decision about what he really wants is not bullying. It's not even close.

Emotional pressure isn't bullying and it doesn't make Will anything near a victim. If it did, then any kid who succumbed to peer pressure could just say they were bullied into it. Nobody who ever got talked into a stupid decision would ever have to take responsibility because it's not their fault.

A person being bullied (threatened, beaten, mercilessly teased and belittled) who does not have a safe place to go IS a victim. An adult man who has chosen to go along with letting another man raise his child because he is afraid to tell his boyfriend and doesn't want to upset his babymama is not being bullied. He's just copping out.
I LOVE this. I think the word bullying is too freely used where it does not necessarily apply. Will asked Nick what would happen to his proposal to Gabi if he did not go along and Nick said it did not matter. Will still went along. His decision. I think the disconnect is that while no one is of the belief that Nick and Gabi are behaving in anyway that is sympathetic, it is only honest to realize that Will is no innocent in all of this. He made the decision to go along, he has the power to tell Sonny and still go along, and he has the power to change his mind if he does not like how things are going. Instead he is just sitting back and complaining about being left out, having no one to talk to, and how things are getting worse for him everyday. Meanwhile he has the power to change it all just by admitting the truth. I will go along with the writers trying to convince me that he is rightly conflicted, but I am not buying that he is a helpless victim.
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Honeybees
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Angelsmile
Dec 29 2012, 12:54 PM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:34 PM
guessgirl
Dec 28 2012, 07:28 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
He didn't exactly agree to the deal. He was pushed and didn't have much choice...

There is a borderline between negotiation and being too self-righteous. Yes I know that Sami and Kate's companies are in competition but it's not that I don't agree with him wanting what he wants but the way he delivers what he wants...
He totally had a choice. All he had to do was say no to Nick's idea, tell Gabi he intends to be a part of his child's life, and tell Sonny (and his family) the truth. There is nothing Nick and Gabi could have done to stop him. Hell, there is nothing they can do to stop him now. I don't care how pushy Nick and Gabi are being, this one is on Will. I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but that doesn't make him a victim.
Why can't I like a comment more than once when I love it this much?
Will made a mistake under enormous guilt and pressure, and he's moving toward doing the right thing. But he's a very young man in a confusing situation and not sure what to do. Whether he's a victim or not is irrelevant - but the idea that because he made a non-legally binding promise under that pressure so he should shut up and not have any feelings about his own child is ridiculous. It's his child, and he's signed nothing away. Legally, the child is as much his responsibility as Gabi's. He's just not informed enough or confident enough yet to step up to the plate. Gabi and Nick are behaving like the child is a toy that Will gave to them, and now he's trying to take it back. In fact, he's not trying to take it back and it's certainly not a toy.

He's just bringing up the fact that he doesn't feel right about the promise he made under pressure, and that none of them have thought this through enough, including himself. I'll say again that the fact that Will isn't sure what is the right thing to do for the child (and everyone else) speaks well of him. The fact that he's trying to keep his word both about the paternity and about not telling anyone, speaks well of him although it's plain as day that that is what he needs to do.

I've no doubt that Will will eventually tell the truth and assert his rights. Given Nick's slide into full on villaindom, the might even put him in danger. It's just that it will take some time and there will be a few more almosts before it happens. In the meantime, I think the fact that Will cares about his child isn't a character flaw, and that he shouldn't just forget about him or her because Gabi and Nick told him to.
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Angelsmile


Honeybees
Dec 29 2012, 01:26 PM
Angelsmile
Dec 29 2012, 12:54 PM
esp13
Dec 28 2012, 09:16 PM
Kerenush
Dec 28 2012, 07:34 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
He totally had a choice. All he had to do was say no to Nick's idea, tell Gabi he intends to be a part of his child's life, and tell Sonny (and his family) the truth. There is nothing Nick and Gabi could have done to stop him. Hell, there is nothing they can do to stop him now. I don't care how pushy Nick and Gabi are being, this one is on Will. I understand why he is doing what he is doing, but that doesn't make him a victim.
Why can't I like a comment more than once when I love it this much?
Will made a mistake under enormous guilt and pressure, and he's moving toward doing the right thing. But he's a very young man in a confusing situation and not sure what to do. Whether he's a victim or not is irrelevant - but the idea that because he made a non-legally binding promise under that pressure so he should shut up and not have any feelings about his own child is ridiculous. It's his child, and he's signed nothing away. Legally, the child is as much his responsibility as Gabi's. He's just not informed enough or confident enough yet to step up to the plate. Gabi and Nick are behaving like the child is a toy that Will gave to them, and now he's trying to take it back. In fact, he's not trying to take it back and it's certainly not a toy.

He's just bringing up the fact that he doesn't feel right about the promise he made under pressure, and that none of them have thought this through enough, including himself. I'll say again that the fact that Will isn't sure what is the right thing to do for the child (and everyone else) speaks well of him. The fact that he's trying to keep his word both about the paternity and about not telling anyone, speaks well of him although it's plain as day that that is what he needs to do.

I've no doubt that Will will eventually tell the truth and assert his rights. Given Nick's slide into full on villaindom, the might even put him in danger. It's just that it will take some time and there will be a few more almosts before it happens. In the meantime, I think the fact that Will cares about his child isn't a character flaw, and that he shouldn't just forget about him or her because Gabi and Nick told him to.
I totally agree that Will's internal conflict about what he is doing speaks well of him. He is conflicted and he should be. However, it is not Nick and Gabi's fault. It is his own. He certainly has the right to change his mind, but no one is keeping him from doing so but himself.
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