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Monday, January 14th Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Jan 14 2013, 09:55 AM (16,194 Views)
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And it sounds like the only reason why he wants his child now is because he thinks he's lost Sonny and doesn't have anything else left. A fine reason to want your child. They have Will behaving like Nicole did when she lost her son, more concerned about losing Daniel than her baby dying.. Honestly Tomlin, it is that hard to write characters who love their children more than who they want in their beds?
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Honeybees
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camera shy
Jan 15 2013, 10:17 AM
And it sounds like the only reason why he wants his child now is because he thinks he's lost Sonny and doesn't have anything else left. A fine reason to want your child. They have Will behaving like Nicole did when she lost her son, more concerned about losing Daniel than her baby dying.. Honestly Tomlin, it is that hard to write characters who love their children more than who they want in their beds?
I completely and totally disagree. There's no reason to believe Will isn't motivated by caring. He's had dreams of the loss of his child. He's been thrown into a depression, which Sonny has noticed. He's been clearly shown in emotional turmoil. If it was all about Sonny, he could have kept his mouth shut and rode into the sunset with Sonny. Cite me one scene where Will has been callous or un-caring about the future of his child.

Lucas has a strong point of view based on experience. So does Will. Neither of them are wrong, but Will is not a weak or cowardly person for being willing to give up a child he loves for its own benefit. He's not even said he wants to raise the child himself. He's only said that the lie can no longer stand, and he's right.

I do wonder if people would be so dismissive of Will's feelings for Sonny if he were a girl. Lucas was scornful when he spoke the name Sonny, when Sonny could have been recruited as an ally to help Will through a difficult time. Or at least they could have tried. Also, Lucas could have shown some compassion for the clearly devastated Will. Loving is more than possessing, and it looks like neither of Will's parents have ever understood that.

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Sparrow


I finally got to go back and watch everything I missed at the beginning, and yes, Sami did lead off her rant against Gabi with "you were going to keep this baby away from Will and his family." And then she goes on and on about being used for this dream wedding. Maybe because that was a less tender nerve than the baby? If so, then awesome. I love Sami avoiding the real reason she's angry because it's a crime she's guilty of too, and laying into Gabi over using her for the wedding.

Sonny, being the smartest guy in the room, absolutely knew as soon as Chad stood up and he saw the look on Will's face. He totally knew. Loved that too. Love that they are totally giving Sonny and Will the types of true love intuition they reserve for fledgeling supercouples. You might make me want to put my shoe through the television sometimes, Show, but thank you for writing for this couple the way you do. When was the last time we saw a real "love against all odds" romance? I declare, at this moment, that I am officially a Wilson shipper. Sonny, being so level-headed, so steady, and Will being such a fuck-up, so flaky, but trying so hard... yes, more. More!

And Nick. There's nothing I love more than subtlety in a soap, and he was given so many little, insignificant lines that seemed like nothing special, but made my skin crawl because they were classic abuser, through and through. Telling Abigail to give Gabi some space, trying to keep anyone from following Gabi to comfort her, especially Rafe (and saying that he was afraid that Rafe was going to judge her and yell at her.) The first thing an abuser does is isolate his partner from her friends and family, and then convince her that he's the only one who cares about her. I predict that Nick will become violent. I'm going to have to face it that geeky, sweet, sincere Nick is gone. This Nick is really a new character altogether, but it's cool that he is a Horton and has those family connections, especially the Horton royalty who are defending him. This is also a story that I am now very interested in.

So, all that praise aside, it is just amazing, AMAZING I tell you! that with one line, and with one half of my most loathed pairing not even present, show you still managed to piss me off. "Mrs Horton?" Chad has been dating her daughter off and on for a long time. He knows her name. So either she dropped her married name, in which case fuck you, or the writers are trying to erase her deceased husband from history and my memory, in which case also fuck you. Incredible. Actually impressive that even in the middle of this awesome, classic, old school wedding reveal, one of the most truly soapy episodes I've seen you muster in a long time, you still find a tiny little way to promote that pairing. Well, fine. I did enjoy the rest of the episode, and I am hooked again, I admit it, so you can have your dream team. I won't begrudge you, show. But nothing you can do will make me care about them. Deal?
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elci525
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I've posted about this already in like posts 14-16, so I don't want to say too much more.

But that won't stop me, lol. I will just say that I can sympathize with Will, recognize and appreciate that he has been grappling with the decision, that he never wanted to give up his rights to the child out of convenience or b/c that was easier than being a full-time parent. But I can also be disappointed by decisions he has made, and his reaction immediately after post-reveal. Yes, Lumi did not treat Will very well for a large chunk of his early life. But at least from Lucas's side, although he was no angel and had plenty of meanness in him towards Sami during the custody years, he did fight tooth and nail to remain in his son's life. And I don't think Will remembers or appreciates some of what that was. Which is fine, he was a child; he will remember what he remembers, and what he remembers is valid. I only say this in defense of Lucas's appropriately intense reaction to what ostensibly looked like Will washing his hands of something so easily. Someone posted that it may have seemed like a bit of a slap in the face for Lucas given what Lucas did to be part of Will's life, given that Lucas was FORCED to lose those very early years with Will, to see Will make this decision willingly.

And when Will says more than this in response to Lucas's questions, "I need to find Sonny," or, "We thought it best for the child" -- when he emotionally and honestly declares that the life he had as a young boy was no life he wanted for his child -- then we will see what Lucas says in return. I really doubt he would dismiss that very legitimate reaction and reasoning. But bottom line is a lie is never a good way to start any relationship, incl. parent/child, and the lie Sami told Lucas was what launched the animosity and heated custody battles to begin with. When Will can sit and deal with the consequences of what his choices have created, including the right choice to tell the truth, and not want to brush the valid POV and input his father has, maybe I will go a little easier on him.

And I don't think Lucas was berating Will. I think he was adamantly perhaps, but very reasonably pointing out the holes in Will's logic, given what Will has told him as far as the context for the thinking pretending Nick was the baby's father was best.

As for Will's relationship with Sonny, I don't diminish or undervalue it, esp. in its importance to Will. I don't think I ever said that his wanting to seek Sonny was weak. But it isn't a priority. Maybe Will thinks it is, and that is fair, but now that a child is in the picture, Sonny is not a priority. Boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever - not the priority. And I think that is part of what Lucas was trying to get across.
Edited by elci525, Jan 15 2013, 10:38 AM.
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Harmony233


to be fair lucas has been on both sides of the fence been kept from his child but he also knows how that living a lie could tear apart your life like kate lying to him about who his father was then finding out the truth and then feeling rejected by his father.
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Honeybees
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elci525
Jan 15 2013, 10:34 AM
I've posted about this already in like posts 14-16, so I don't want to say too much more.

But that won't stop me, lol. I will just say that I can sympathize with Will, recognize and appreciate that he has been grappling with the decision, that he never wanted to give up his rights to the child out of convenience or b/c that was easier than being a full-time parent. But I can also be disappointed by decisions he has made, and his reaction immediately after post-reveal. Yes, Lumi did not treat Will very well for a large chunk of his early life. But at least from Lucas's side, although he was no angel and had plenty of meanness in him towards Sami during the custody years, he did fight tooth and nail to remain in his son's life. And I don't think Will remembers or appreciates some of what that was. Which is fine, he was a child; he will remember what he remembers, and what he remembers is valid. I only say this in defense of Lucas's appropriately intense reaction to what ostensibly looked like Will washing his hands of something so easily. Someone posted that it may have seemed like a bit of a slap in the face for Lucas given what Lucas did to be part of Will's life, given that Lucas was FORCED to lose those very early years with Will, to see Will make this decision willingly.

And when Will says more than this in response to Lucas's questions, "I need to find Sonny," or, "We thought it best for the child" -- when he emotionally and honestly declares that the life he had as a young boy was no life he wanted for his child -- then we will see what Lucas says in return. I really doubt he would dismiss that very legitimate reaction and reasoning. But bottom line is a lie is never a good way to start any relationship, incl. parent/child, and the lie Sami told Lucas was what launched the animosity and heated custody battles to begin with. When Will can sit and deal with the consequences of what his choices have created, including the right choice to tell the truth, and not want to brush the valid POV and input his father has, maybe I will go a little easier on him.

And I don't think Lucas was berating Will. I think he was adamantly perhaps, but very reasonably pointing out the holes in Will's logic, given what Will has told him as far as the context for the thinking pretending Nick was the baby's father was best.

As for Will's relationship with Sonny, I don't diminish or undervalue it, esp. in its importance to Will. I don't think I ever said that his wanting to seek Sonny was weak. But it isn't a priority. Maybe Will thinks it is, and that is fair, but now that a child is in the picture, Sonny is not a priority. Boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever - not the priority. And I think that is part of what Lucas was trying to get across.
Well, we're going to have to disagree. I do not believe Lucas would have been so scornful or dismissive of a serious girlfriend Will had.

And the fact is that as wrong as he has been, Will has never washed his hands of this child, and he jumped at the chance to be the godfather and was cut off by Nick. I was responding specifically to the idea that Will didn't care about his child and only cared about his boyfriend, which is not true and we can agree on that.

I stand by the fact that I'd like to see someone who claims to love Will show him some compassion, and that's in the context of seeing him try to do the right thing. It's because I like Lucas as a character that I would like it to have been him, and I would like to have seen him assume the best and not the worst of his son.
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Miss Rhi
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"If Sami can't find happiness with a Martian, then she can't find happiness with anyone."

AFaithL
Jan 15 2013, 12:52 AM
Kate Mansi looks so much better with brown hair. Wish she would go back to her natural color. The blond is HIDEOUS.
It's a horrid fake looking brassy/gold color and it's really been apparent the last few episodes.
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supercool74
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I know everyone is saying that Sonny should not be Will's priority, but that the baby should be. I do get that...but as of now Sonny is there..the baby is not. That baby is still in Gabi's stomach and there may not be a physical/emotional connection to it as of yet. I know I didn't really have one until I actually held my babies. I think once the baby is actually there, it will be a different story. Will is freaking out because he doesn't want to lose the man he loves. At this point I'm not really sure what he's supposed to do regarding the baby. It hasn't been born yet. His child should be his top priority...but really what's he supposed to do right now? I don't get the hostility with him trying to go after Sonny. Sonny is physically there and he can actually do something about that situation right now.
Edited by supercool74, Jan 15 2013, 10:54 AM.
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esp13
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supercool74
Jan 15 2013, 10:54 AM
I know everyone is saying that Sonny should not be Will's priority, but that the baby should be. I do get that...but as of now Sonny is there..the baby is not. That baby is still in Gabi's stomach and there may not be a physical/emotional connection to it as of yet. I know I didn't really have one until I actually held my babies. I think once the baby is actually there, it will be a different story. Will is freaking out because he doesn't want to lose the man he loves. At this point I'm not really sure what he's supposed to do regarding the baby. It hasn't been born yet. His child should be his top priority...but really what's he supposed to do right now? I don't get the hostility with him trying to go after Sonny. Sonny is physically there and he can actually do something about that situation right now.
My problem is not that Will didn't make the baby an immediate priority, it's that he made his big announcement and then left Gabi to face the fallout alone. I'm glad Will stepped up, but he disappointed me by then immediately running away. I understand he is worried about Sonny. But, he chose to make an announcement in public, when Nick and Gabi clearly did not want him to, and then he took off and let Gabi get reamed by his mother. It's not diminishing his feelings for Sonny to say that I think Will handled the whole thing poorly.
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elci525
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Yeah, I didn't mean tending to the baby was the priority, as of course there is no physical baby there to tend to. I meant dealing with the fallout of the announcement, and the handling of the "baby" situation, to put it a little crudely, if that makes sense. Addressing what has just happened, focusing on the decisions he has made regarding the life he has created. It makes absolute sense that he would want to find Sonny, I wouldn't have expected him not to - it's the man he loves whom he has hurt, and Will realizes this and is scared. Makes sense. But in light of what has just been revealed, and the reality in which Will now finds himself, I don't think exposing this truth and allowing it to just exist there was the best handling of the situation. And perhaps why Lucas was insistent that Will address this first before looking for Sonny.
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SocRMum1
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Much prefers sweevil, snarky EJ over Father Figure Fucktard Eejiot.

I've just spent the past while going through the last 10 or so pages and I 'liked' so many posts I would have made CynthiaHaskins raise an eyebrow. Don't judge me, people - I haven't been this excited by a DAYS episode since I can remember - including the cliff hanger. :laugh:

Seriously - I watched this one last night and then AGAIN this morning. I never, ever do that. And particularly when James Scott is no where to be seen. THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN! :o

Hands down - the most fun I've had watching this show in years. It was everything a good, soapy reveal should be - full of drama, suspense, verbal bitch slaps, tears, and comic relief.

I don't even know where to start. Hope was fabulous throughout. Loved her "STEP OFF, RAFE!!!" And she and Casey D were absolutely cracking me up with their timing - every time he'd start to mouth off she'd shut him down and he'd totally cow tow with a quick "Okay" or "Fine". It's not nearly as funny in print but watching it had me totally snorting. And I'm not a CD fan - but enjoyed him immensely today.

Chandler did a wonderful job showing Will's internal conflict as he was deciding whether or not to speak up. Really powerful in a very quiet, understated way. I agree with Matt's earlier comment about the camera work and staging of Will's announcement with Sami in the background. And again when Will was pleading with Sonny and you could see Sami looking on in concern in the background. I think it was intended to add fuel to Sami's AWESOME smack down of Gabi. Mama Bear came out in full force - and she reacted emotionally and viciously. I LOVED IT! Hypocritical as she was - it was like a reunion with the character I always loved for years. I do have to wonder how close both AS and GG were to choking on some of their lines, though - I mean, having Rafe ask Nick why he would claim a baby that wasn't his. HILARIOUSLY hypocritical. At least with Sami the dialogue basically had her acknowledge her hypocrisy with the "I can't believe I didn't see you coming - you should have looked so familiar to me..." Apparently Rafe lacks the ability to be as self reflective. :rolleyes:

Blake Berris gave me the heebie jeebies when he delivered his little warning to Chad. And I think he might have made Casey D crap his pants a little. :scared:

Six - I'm right there with you on being a little bit pissed off that they've made me really like Lisa Rinna's Billie again - just as they're sending her off. Idiots. Billie and Kate were just the perfect amount of comic relief today. The line about Kate being a great grandma was great, but I also loved her snarky "The day is already shot all to hell", as well.

I feel like I'm forgetting all sorts of other great moments to mention - which is pretty freaking great in and of itself. :applause:

Fantastic episode - and I can't WAIT to see what happens next.

ETA: I knew it! I can't not mention how good I thought BD was in those scenes with Will in the park. Really stellar acting - I loved how passionate he was in sharing with Will how this baby will change his life and become the number one priority. Well written and well played - particularly with creepy Nick lurking in the background getting an earful of Lucas basically convincing Will to fight for his kid.
Edited by SocRMum1, Jan 15 2013, 11:30 AM.
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Sparrow


I think that after seeing Sami neglect her children to chase after man after man, Lucas would be horrified to see Will literally leave his child to chase after a man. Lucas' reaction was perfect, and I think he would be furious as well if Will had a girlfriend (although the parallel wouldn't have been quite as obvious.)
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elci525
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Honeybees
Jan 15 2013, 10:46 AM
elci525
Jan 15 2013, 10:34 AM
I've posted about this already in like posts 14-16, so I don't want to say too much more.

But that won't stop me, lol. I will just say that I can sympathize with Will, recognize and appreciate that he has been grappling with the decision, that he never wanted to give up his rights to the child out of convenience or b/c that was easier than being a full-time parent. But I can also be disappointed by decisions he has made, and his reaction immediately after post-reveal. Yes, Lumi did not treat Will very well for a large chunk of his early life. But at least from Lucas's side, although he was no angel and had plenty of meanness in him towards Sami during the custody years, he did fight tooth and nail to remain in his son's life. And I don't think Will remembers or appreciates some of what that was. Which is fine, he was a child; he will remember what he remembers, and what he remembers is valid. I only say this in defense of Lucas's appropriately intense reaction to what ostensibly looked like Will washing his hands of something so easily. Someone posted that it may have seemed like a bit of a slap in the face for Lucas given what Lucas did to be part of Will's life, given that Lucas was FORCED to lose those very early years with Will, to see Will make this decision willingly.

And when Will says more than this in response to Lucas's questions, "I need to find Sonny," or, "We thought it best for the child" -- when he emotionally and honestly declares that the life he had as a young boy was no life he wanted for his child -- then we will see what Lucas says in return. I really doubt he would dismiss that very legitimate reaction and reasoning. But bottom line is a lie is never a good way to start any relationship, incl. parent/child, and the lie Sami told Lucas was what launched the animosity and heated custody battles to begin with. When Will can sit and deal with the consequences of what his choices have created, including the right choice to tell the truth, and not want to brush the valid POV and input his father has, maybe I will go a little easier on him.

And I don't think Lucas was berating Will. I think he was adamantly perhaps, but very reasonably pointing out the holes in Will's logic, given what Will has told him as far as the context for the thinking pretending Nick was the baby's father was best.

As for Will's relationship with Sonny, I don't diminish or undervalue it, esp. in its importance to Will. I don't think I ever said that his wanting to seek Sonny was weak. But it isn't a priority. Maybe Will thinks it is, and that is fair, but now that a child is in the picture, Sonny is not a priority. Boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever - not the priority. And I think that is part of what Lucas was trying to get across.
Well, we're going to have to disagree. I do not believe Lucas would have been so scornful or dismissive of a serious girlfriend Will had.

And the fact is that as wrong as he has been, Will has never washed his hands of this child, and he jumped at the chance to be the godfather and was cut off by Nick. I was responding specifically to the idea that Will didn't care about his child and only cared about his boyfriend, which is not true and we can agree on that.

I stand by the fact that I'd like to see someone who claims to love Will show him some compassion, and that's in the context of seeing him try to do the right thing. It's because I like Lucas as a character that I would like it to have been him, and I would like to have seen him assume the best and not the worst of his son.
That would be ideal of course. But I think this PARTICULAR turn of events hold such a ripe, raw, emotional resonance for Lucas and takes him right back to a familiar place, that that is where he is coming from. I don't think it's assuming the worst in Will. It's maybe being tunnel-visioned that he can only remember how he felt once he learned the truth of Will's paternity, and now seeing that Will is making a willing choice to give up fatherhood, he can't understand. What he can see and remember right now are his own memories, his own experiences, and they still hold such a potency that it invokes in him an emotional response. I don't think that is the same as thinking the worst in Will, and honestly I don't fault him for going to that place first. Which is why an articulate, substantive response from Will describing his also reasonable POV is most necessary, to have an effective, cogent dialogue.
Edited by elci525, Jan 15 2013, 11:36 AM.
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cord08


I totally believe that Will has made many questionable decisions in this story line and honestly...I like it that way. I love the fact that he's a screw-up most of the time. That's probably why I don't despise Nick and Gabi either. I don't agree with their actions/beliefs all the time, but their messed up dynamic is interesting for me to watch. Now I just need Sonny to be a little bit more imperfect and I would be content.
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Harmony233


Sparrow
Jan 15 2013, 11:32 AM
I think that after seeing Sami neglect her children to chase after man after man, Lucas would be horrified to see Will literally leave his child to chase after a man. Lucas' reaction was perfect, and I think he would be furious as well if Will had a girlfriend (although the parallel wouldn't have been quite as obvious.)
IA I don't see lucas being happy about will turning his back on his child no matter what whether will was straight or gay.
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Matt
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Classic Soap Fan

IMO, I think the reason this storyline is so engaging and such a success (IMO) is that that characters HAVE made mistakes, but those mistakes have made perfectly logical sense. Although it might seem obvious to us, as viewers, why their choices have been mistakes or wrong, they made absolutely perfect sense to the characters and their line of thinking. I can actually understand WHY each character has done what they've done (even if I disagree with them).
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Sparrow


This is sheer blasphemy, I know it, but with Bo out of the picture, it is really wonderful seeing Hope interact with all these different characters. She and AZ both have a gift of making everyone they share scenes with suddenly interesting. I f'LOVED her scenes with Rafe and Chad, even her acknowledging the Brady trait of selectively deciding if a crime has been committed based on who committed it. I actually loved her scenes with everyone. That bit with Kate, short as it was, was all kinds of wonderful. I haven't loved Hope this much in a long time. I hope they continue to use her like this and don't decide to let her fade into the background. I think she is more interesting without Bo. Sorry everyone.
Edited by Sparrow, Jan 15 2013, 11:43 AM.
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Honeybees
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elci525
Jan 15 2013, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I didn't mean tending to the baby was the priority, as of course there is no physical baby there to tend to. I meant dealing with the fallout of the announcement, and the handling of the "baby" situation, to put it a little crudely, if that makes sense. Addressing what has just happened, focusing on the decisions he has made regarding the life he has created. It makes absolute sense that he would want to find Sonny, I wouldn't have expected him not to - it's the man he loves whom he has hurt, and Will realizes this and is scared. Makes sense. But in light of what has just been revealed, and the reality in which Will now finds himself, I don't think exposing this truth and allowing it to just exist there was the best handling of the situation. And perhaps why Lucas was insistent that Will address this first before looking for Sonny.
I agree that Will needed to stick up for Gabi, although having some private time to talk to Sonny first is totally understandable. Nick and Gabi have had each other to lean on for weeks, though I haven't seen much turmoil there. Will's been alone, struggling with his feelings and what to do. He's needed someone in his corner (and totally should have confided in Sonny or Marlena), and so it makes perfect sense to me that he would run to the man he loves. We don't know if he would have talked about the relationship, or possibly ask for Sonny's help. I'm not saying I would have liked to see Sonny give it right away, but Will's been pretty alone in a situation where no one should be alone.

Personally, I dislike the character of Gabi and think she should be thrown in jail for abandoning Melanie to Andrew, but without Nick breathing down her neck, she has been compassionate and caring toward Will through this. So, I can get behind the idea that Will needed to support her. It's true that Will didn't stop the wedding, first Chad and then Eric did, but then again he should have stepped up earlier and this wouldn't have been so public. I still think someone with some compassion - even Eric - got Will and Gabi in a room, they could work this out easily.
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six
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elci525
Jan 15 2013, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I didn't mean tending to the baby was the priority, as of course there is no physical baby there to tend to. I meant dealing with the fallout of the announcement, and the handling of the "baby" situation, to put it a little crudely, if that makes sense. Addressing what has just happened, focusing on the decisions he has made regarding the life he has created. It makes absolute sense that he would want to find Sonny, I wouldn't have expected him not to - it's the man he loves whom he has hurt, and Will realizes this and is scared. Makes sense. But in light of what has just been revealed, and the reality in which Will now finds himself, I don't think exposing this truth and allowing it to just exist there was the best handling of the situation. And perhaps why Lucas was insistent that Will address this first before looking for Sonny.
But shouldn't his conversation with Sonny fall under the "handling the baby situation" umbrella? If Wilson is as serious as they think they are, which as 21or 22 year olds, they probably aren't, this situation would have a larger impact on Sonny than the random family members who were assembled, unless Will is gong to be counting on them to help raise the baby, which is possible.
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Harmony233


a part of me wished they would have done flashbacks when victor was talking about sami lying about the paternity.lol
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