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Thursday, October 3rd Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Oct 3 2013, 12:00 AM (6,709 Views)
kay
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Kay

Honeybees
Oct 3 2013, 04:14 PM
esp13
Oct 3 2013, 03:18 PM
Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 02:04 PM
LanaluvsBroe
Oct 3 2013, 01:00 PM
Kayla coddling Daniel is pissing me off. For once, I want to someone to tell him that he is human (NOT perfect) and that he needs to mind his damn business. Worry about his own son and leave Jennifer's the hell alone. :flipoff:
The sympathy I might otherwise feel for Kayla is tempered by TIIC having her immediately prop Fetch and Daniel right after running away from JJ. Whom Kayla now refers to as "that boy" and whom she insists "has to" stop comparing Daniel to Jack because Daniel's "not a monster, and Jack was ... all too human." Newsflash, Dr. Johnson--JJ doesn't "have to" stop anything when it comes to Daniel vs. Jack. He has as much right to his feelings as you have to yours. As it is, neither of you is 100% right or 100% wrong--about either man.

The news that Daniel may be leaving to visit Melanie is welcome. I just wish I believed it was going to happen. And I'd be ecstatic if it were permanent, but I'd settle for him being offscreen for the duration of JJ's story.
So wait? Kayla's not 100% right when she says that Daniel is not a monster and Jack was all too human? How is that out of line? How is that telling Daniel he is perfect? When has she EVER said he was perfect? Just because she's his friend has never meant that she thought he was perfect.

And sure, JJ has a right to his feelings but why is Kayla required to coddle them when they aren't based on the truth? Daniel is not, and has not been, the monster that JJ has painted him to be -- especially not to JJ. Jack was not perfect, was not a saint, and the pedestal that JJ has placed him on is not a place Jack would have ever been comfortable with.

Kayla has every right - in fact more right than anybody - to her feelings and, god forbid, to be human herself when it comes to her feelings about Jack. She's not the villain in this piece. She was the victim and if she wants to shout out what Jack did from the rooftops she has that right. It is not her duty or obligation to protect Jack's legacy by hiding the truth or coddling his son's na´ve view of the man. Yet, she's done that pretty much since the rape happened. She put her feelings aside so Steve could have a relationship with his brother, even to the point of letting her rapist be the best man at her wedding. And yet, she makes one slip and dares not to drink the Kool-Aid that Jack is awesome and Daniel is a monster and now she's the villain. Sorry, I don't buy it.
Yet, JJ isn't the villain here either. He was never told about his father's past crimes, and he certainly means no harm to Kayla because he loves and misses his father and has a difficult time accepting that his mother replace his father so quickly. I don't believe Kayla is wrong here, though I believe she is responsible for the choice she made as an adult to have a relationship with her niece and nephew for Steve's sake. I liked that it was portrayed as a mistake, because Kayla is not the type of character who would hold JJ responsible for his father's actions, and she certainly knows that given that Jack is dead and JJ idolizes him in grief, that it is not appropriate for her to tell JJ.

I do not like that Daniel is the loci of the action here, and it's part of fact that the writers must make either Daniel or Sami central to all things (and to a lessor extent Kristen). I do see hints in the writing that JJ will be punished for loving his father and being loyal to him (because he raped Kayla and JJ should have somehow instinctively seen this evil in his dad?). I also see hints that Jack's rape of Kayla is being used to punish Jack fans for not preferring Daniel. I find that exploitative.

However, more importantly, I find the presence of Daniel in what could be an excellent Kayla story intrusive, with Kayla at the center of the action and JJ growing as a character (Think of when Harry Potter learned his father was a bully, which isn't even close to as bad as what Jack did). But in the end, the moral of this story will not be about forgiveness, the right to never forget even when one forgives, the sins of the father being visiting on the son, the legacy of sexual assault on entire families or about learning that your parents are human. It will be about how awesome Daniel is.

I'll also say that Casey Moss is an excellent young actor, and he ups his game with the better actors. A storyline where Kayla becomes the surrogate mother to Jack's son because Steve is gone and Jennifer is too busy pining for Daniel would be totally epic. Kayla isn't obligated to JJ in any way, but that would be the point. Also, I would really like to see MBE and Casey Moss act opposite each other on a regular basis.

There were hints of greatness in today. I just wish this was a Kayla story not a Daniel is awesome story.
Great post.
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TreasureCove
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Quote:
 
Too much attention is being paid to the behavior, and not the reasons for it. The symptoms are being treated, instead of the disease.


Jennifer hasn't spent any real time with JJ. Jennifer suits up to go running, JJ mentions they used to run together, Jennifer doesn't bother inviting him.

She doesn't check how he's doing at summer school. She doesn't take him out for lunch where they can be alone to talk, or talk with him about neutral topics.

She'll take off from her job in the middle of the day without telling anyone, or in the middle of an emergancy to stalk Daniel all the way to the Horton cabin, but won't put in for a personal day weeks in advance so she can spend the day of her husband's memorial with her children.
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Romancer66


granolagirl
Oct 3 2013, 08:29 PM
Does respecting someone's feelings mean protecting them from other facts that might be contrary to their feelings?

Does it mean that it would be disrespectful to tell Kayla anything negative about Dan, since she likes him?

Living in the world sometimes means you get hit with information that challenges your thoughts and beliefs.
1. Will exposing them to those facts do more harm than good?

2. Would the negative information about Daniel be something that could impact Kayla or someone she cares about?

Carefully controlling the flow of information to minimize potential damage is sometimes preferable to letting it fly around and "hit" people. And sometimes, fair or not, justified or not, the smartest thing to do is to keep one's mouth shut.

Although if everyone did that, soaps and other forms of drama would instantly cease to exist.

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Kriss4


Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?

I find it ironic that Daniel, whom I hate, is the FIRST person in a very, very, very long time to ask Kayla if she's okay. Cuz no one else has in well over a year.
Edited by Kriss4, Oct 3 2013, 09:58 PM.
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Romancer66


Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 09:50 PM
Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?
I'd say it was inconvenient in any teenager's presence, given that they tend to the self-centered and overdramatic. As it was, I will say that Kayla was smart to get away from JJ while she was that agitated. I just think it's a pity that she didn't go straight to Jennifer to tell her what almost happened, and that JJ might start asking some difficult questions as a result. I'd have taken that any day over her needless run-in with Daniel.
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mer4santo
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SoapGal1
Oct 3 2013, 02:12 PM
tomsawyer
Oct 3 2013, 12:31 PM
LOL at Sami grooming EJ. Cute.
Wish she would've cut the clump of hair growing atop his head.
Be careful what you wish for, remember the last time Sami initiated an EJ haircut?
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Kriss4


Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 09:57 PM
Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 09:50 PM
Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?
I'd say it was inconvenient in any teenager's presence, given that they tend to the self-centered and overdramatic. As it was, I will say that Kayla was smart to get away from JJ while she was that agitated. I just think it's a pity that she didn't go straight to Jennifer to tell her what almost happened, and that JJ might start asking some difficult questions as a result. I'd have taken that any day over her needless run-in with Daniel.
Sure, but I liked the scene with Jennifer and Abby, where Abby told her Mom JJ was asking questions.

Kate Mansi did a very nice job in her scenes with Casey Moss today.

The talk about Jack...the discussion of JJ's conversation with Kayla, and Abby's sidestep.

I'm hoping Jennifer has scenes tomorrow where Kayla tells Jennifer what happened. But I liked the way the show handled it today, allowing Abby and her mom that moment.

I love Kayla, so I hope she has moments with Jennifer, Adrienne, and later, a more complete discussion with JJ about her mixed feelings, which couldn't be simple about this...but also about Jack's journey, and his attempts to make amends.



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Keith
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I'm still annoyed that Abby knows.

If Stephanie wasn't told about it when SHE was raped...come on.
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granolagirl
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Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 09:57 PM
Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 09:50 PM
Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?
I'd say it was inconvenient in any teenager's presence, given that they tend to the self-centered and overdramatic. As it was, I will say that Kayla was smart to get away from JJ while she was that agitated. I just think it's a pity that she didn't go straight to Jennifer to tell her what almost happened, and that JJ might start asking some difficult questions as a result. I'd have taken that any day over her needless run-in with Daniel.
I'm glad we got to see ONE moment she got to herself with someone who has pretty much always had a kind word for her, rather than every beat in this story being about the Deverauxs.
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Kriss4


Keith
Oct 3 2013, 10:10 PM
I'm still annoyed that Abby knows.

If Stephanie wasn't told about it when SHE was raped...come on.
Yeah, well...there IS that.

So dumb not to milk that drama onscreen. Abby clearly knows, and it's too bad.
We should have had a chance to see her (and Stephanie) find out on the show.

But Abby's only really allowed to be an indecisive young woman who's all about two young men and figuring out which one she wants in the most uninspired fashion imaginable.
Edited by Kriss4, Oct 3 2013, 10:24 PM.
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Keith
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granolagirl
Oct 3 2013, 10:16 PM
Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 09:57 PM
Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 09:50 PM
Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?
I'd say it was inconvenient in any teenager's presence, given that they tend to the self-centered and overdramatic. As it was, I will say that Kayla was smart to get away from JJ while she was that agitated. I just think it's a pity that she didn't go straight to Jennifer to tell her what almost happened, and that JJ might start asking some difficult questions as a result. I'd have taken that any day over her needless run-in with Daniel.
I'm glad we got to see ONE moment she got to herself with someone who has pretty much always had a kind word for her, rather than every beat in this story being about the Deverauxs.
I know! Kayla got think about Kayla today.
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Kriss4


granolagirl
Oct 3 2013, 10:16 PM
Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 09:57 PM
Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 09:50 PM
Of course.

Getting upset about a traumatic event from your past is a little inconvenient in JJs presence, huh?
I'd say it was inconvenient in any teenager's presence, given that they tend to the self-centered and overdramatic. As it was, I will say that Kayla was smart to get away from JJ while she was that agitated. I just think it's a pity that she didn't go straight to Jennifer to tell her what almost happened, and that JJ might start asking some difficult questions as a result. I'd have taken that any day over her needless run-in with Daniel.
I'm glad we got to see ONE moment she got to herself with someone who has pretty much always had a kind word for her, rather than every beat in this story being about the Deverauxs.
This!

Even though I don't like Daniel, I appreciated that.
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Laufeyson
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Kriss4
Oct 3 2013, 08:09 PM
esp13
Oct 3 2013, 03:18 PM
Romancer66
Oct 3 2013, 02:04 PM
LanaluvsBroe
Oct 3 2013, 01:00 PM
Kayla coddling Daniel is pissing me off. For once, I want to someone to tell him that he is human (NOT perfect) and that he needs to mind his damn business. Worry about his own son and leave Jennifer's the hell alone. :flipoff:
The sympathy I might otherwise feel for Kayla is tempered by TIIC having her immediately prop Fetch and Daniel right after running away from JJ. Whom Kayla now refers to as "that boy" and whom she insists "has to" stop comparing Daniel to Jack because Daniel's "not a monster, and Jack was ... all too human." Newsflash, Dr. Johnson--JJ doesn't "have to" stop anything when it comes to Daniel vs. Jack. He has as much right to his feelings as you have to yours. As it is, neither of you is 100% right or 100% wrong--about either man.

The news that Daniel may be leaving to visit Melanie is welcome. I just wish I believed it was going to happen. And I'd be ecstatic if it were permanent, but I'd settle for him being offscreen for the duration of JJ's story.
So wait? Kayla's not 100% right when she says that Daniel is not a monster and Jack was all too human? How is that out of line? How is that telling Daniel he is perfect? When has she EVER said he was perfect? Just because she's his friend has never meant that she thought he was perfect.

And sure, JJ has a right to his feelings but why is Kayla required to coddle them when they aren't based on the truth? Daniel is not, and has not been, the monster that JJ has painted him to be -- especially not to JJ. Jack was not perfect, was not a saint, and the pedestal that JJ has placed him on is not a place Jack would have ever been comfortable with.

Kayla has every right - in fact more right than anybody - to her feelings and, god forbid, to be human herself when it comes to her feelings about Jack. She's not the villain in this piece. She was the victim and if she wants to shout out what Jack did from the rooftops she has that right. It is not her duty or obligation to protect Jack's legacy by hiding the truth or coddling his son's na´ve view of the man. Yet, she's done that pretty much since the rape happened. She put her feelings aside so Steve could have a relationship with his brother, even to the point of letting her rapist be the best man at her wedding. And yet, she makes one slip and dares not to drink the Kool-Aid that Jack is awesome and Daniel is a monster and now she's the villain. Sorry, I don't buy it.
Yeah!

I hate Daniel. Everybody knows I hate Daniel! Everybody DOES know that, right?

I don't hate him because he's evil. He isn't. In lots of ways, he'd be considered a good guy. If the show would have somebody call Daniel on some of his worst faults, I probably wouldn't dislike him as much as I do, but their tendency to have everyone tell me what a great guy he is without balancing it out with his faults is a fail for me.

And really, he's not all that interesting. No layers. No lessons to learn. No changing world view. No growth. All we've seen is him going from woman to woman.

Not much to interest there.

But, that said, Kayla was on target. I think she's spent most of her life doing what others wanted, putting much of her own pain aside, shrugging it off...trying to look forward. But that pain is still there, and guess what? People still want her to keep quiet.

Who cares about you, Kayla? Protect Jack's memory. Protect JJ. Shove all your feelings aside. They don't matter. Everybody ELSE's feelings matter. And, hey, JJ's mistakes are fine. Understandable. Jack's mistake that you clearly remember the pain of shouldn't be held against him in any way, shape, or form anymore. Not even in the smallest corner of your heart.



Keep quiet. It's ancient history. Look out for other people. Do for them all the time. Support them. Listen to them. So what if they never ask you how YOU are?



I get what you're saying the thing that gets me is that not for one second did Jack pretend he did not hurt Kayla. It was always with him in how he was so disgustingly awful with her when he interacted with Kayla and Steve and in the beginning with Jennifer. I don't think people were asking Kayla to put herself aside so Jack could benefit. I believe this revelation was inevitable I just hate that it reeks of the writers favouritism and bias towards Daniel. Jack was no saint, he was seriously flawed but I don't approve of (writers) using history to destroy JJ's love and admiration for his father. They are basically negating this relationship in order to shift JJ's allegiance, now Jack becomes a monster to his own son but for what purpose?
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bomber
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While I totally accept the point that being raped is never going to be forgotten by Kayla, it is wrong for the writers to bring it up without also bringing up the letter that Kayla wrote in Jack's defence (when Harper died). The letter was integral to understanding Kayla's point of view- her pain and her forgiveness. The letter also was intended to show that Jack had changed in so many ways and his remorse and atonement. Jack's memory deserves his son to at least read the letter but the writers want to use the rape as a simple plot device to further JJ's anger when in actuality it was one of the best stories ever told (and acted) in soap history.
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Kriss4


The problem I have with it is that Kayla is supposed to just shut up about it for everyone else's sake...part of me really respects that. Another part of me hates it, because it's like Kayla doesn't count.

Jack's memory counts. JJ counts. But Kayla? Not so much. She's supposed to maintain her silence forever, and the fact that she slipped in this situation is looked at only in the context of how it might affect JJ and his memories of his dad.

That's a shame. And you know how she's gonna feel about this...terrible. Probably guilty. She'll think she should have just swallowed it all down again. Protected everyone else.

Just watch.

I hope JJ isn't the only one who gets any concern here.
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LastLicks
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Overall, I enjoyed the JJ/Kayla scenes (both episodes).

I did miss Kayla's natural motherly persona at the very beginning of the encounter (on Wednesday?), which I suppose is all part of the tough love rule I keep waiting for one family member to crack on (C'mon Unle Lucas!) . . . the rest was really good.

I mean, Kayla would like Daniel because they're friends and colleges or whatnot . . . then JJ's rant was rapidly escalating into irrational "teenage angst". I thought the build was solid because there was a distinctive parallel between he and Jack, who also had a habit of not immediately accepting blame and lashing out where Kayla was concerned. What he feels makes sense from my viewing standpoint, but on paper, I wouldn't expect most characters to appreciate his continuously blaming Daniel over everything gone wrong, either. He needs maybe one ally in the family, just not Aunt Kay . . .

She obviously only slipped because he was unknowingly provoking her at that moment, just like I had hoped . . . and she immediately regretted it, which I thought was perfect . . . and the flashback was intense. I'm glad the show just dropped the ambiguity right there and MBE was awesome playing out all the different beats.

Loved the sweet scenes where Abigail shared Jack's novel; definitely the calm before the storm. Abigail clearly knows about the rape (which is news . . . to us all!), but I'm growing on the idea that it may be a necessary balance in this case. Maybe.

I do however wish Kayla's necessary post-argument reaction was expressed through a conversation with Caroline, Adrienne or Hope.
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Kriss4


bomber
Oct 3 2013, 11:55 PM
While I totally accept the point that being raped is never going to be forgotten by Kayla, it is wrong for the writers to bring it up without also bringing up the letter that Kayla wrote in Jack's defence (when Harper died). The letter was integral to understanding Kayla's point of view- her pain and her forgiveness. The letter also was intended to show that Jack had changed in so many ways and his remorse and atonement. Jack's memory deserves his son to at least read the letter but the writers want to use the rape as a simple plot device to further JJ's anger when in actuality it was one of the best stories ever told (and acted) in soap history.
I would welcome that. I'm hoping when all this comes out and JJ's ready, that he and Kayla have a conversation about jack. It's too soon, though. The story's not far enough along.
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Kriss4


LastLicks
Oct 4 2013, 12:09 AM
Overall, I enjoyed the JJ/Kayla scenes (both episodes).

I did miss Kayla's natural motherly persona at the very beginning of the encounter (on Wednesday?), which I suppose is all part of the tough love rule I keep waiting for one family member to crack on (C'mon Unle Lucas!) . . . the rest was really good.

I mean, Kayla would like Daniel because they're friends and colleges or whatnot . . . then JJ's rant was rapidly escalating into irrational "teenage angst". I thought the build was solid because there was a distinctive parallel between he and Jack, who also had a habit of not immediately accepting blame and lashing out where Kayla was concerned. What he feels makes sense from my viewing standpoint, but on paper, I wouldn't expect most characters to appreciate his continuously blaming Daniel over everything gone wrong, either. He needs maybe one ally in the family, just not Aunt Kay . . .

She obviously only slipped because he was unknowingly provoking her at that moment, just like I had hoped . . . and she immediately regretted it, which I thought was perfect . . . and the flashback was intense. I'm glad the show just dropped the ambiguity right there and MBE was awesome playing out all the different beats.

Loved the sweet scenes where Abigail shared Jack's novel; definitely the calm before the storm. Abigail clearly knows about the rape (which is news . . . to us all!), but I'm growing on the idea that it may be a necessary balance in this case. Maybe.

I do however wish Kayla's necessary post-argument reaction was expressed through a conversation with Caroline, Adrienne or Hope.
I would have loved that! Would STILL love it.

I wish. I hope.
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bomber
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Kriss4
Oct 4 2013, 12:08 AM
The problem I have with it is that Kayla is supposed to just shut up about it for everyone else's sake...part of me really respects that. Another part of me hates it, because it's like Kayla doesn't count.

Jack's memory counts. JJ counts. But Kayla? Not so much. She's supposed to maintain her silence forever, and the fact that she slipped in this situation is looked at only in the context of how it might affect JJ and his memories of his dad.

That's a shame. And you know how she's gonna feel about this...terrible. Probably guilty. She'll think she should have just swallowed it all down again. Protected everyone else.

Just watch.

I hope JJ isn't the only one who gets any concern here.
I agree with you - Kayla's feelings should count and it would be great if the show would revisit it but they won't because it's not Kayla they're concerned with it - only JJ. CM said that himself.
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LastLicks
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bomber
Oct 3 2013, 11:55 PM
While I totally accept the point that being raped is never going to be forgotten by Kayla, it is wrong for the writers to bring it up without also bringing up the letter that Kayla wrote in Jack's defence (when Harper died). The letter was integral to understanding Kayla's point of view- her pain and her forgiveness. The letter also was intended to show that Jack had changed in so many ways and his remorse and atonement. Jack's memory deserves his son to at least read the letter but the writers want to use the rape as a simple plot device to further JJ's anger when in actuality it was one of the best stories ever told (and acted) in soap history.
Yeah, I also fear that they'll basically simplify the whole dynamic between Jack and Kayla over this. I'm just not convinced yet that they won't at least attempt to explain that she forgave him. I'm also thinking having Abigail already know about the rape is meant to balance out the shock and anger JJ is about to feel, so she will be able to help him through it.
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