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Friday, October 4th Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Oct 4 2013, 12:22 AM (11,633 Views)
LuvingLumi
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♥ Lumi is Light, Lumi is Love ♥

mollymay
Oct 6 2013, 10:36 AM
S loves EJ
Oct 6 2013, 10:17 AM
LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 09:51 AM
six
Oct 6 2013, 09:21 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Of the few times that Ej has tried to get away from Stefano, he's quickly gone back to being under Stefano out of his own accord. That I remember correctly, Stefano truly didn't have to hold a gun to his head to have Ej return to the fold, so while he's tried to do it before, he's never really succeeded and not because Stefano did something to oblige EJ, but because EJ wanted to be part of that again.

I don't consider what he did a huge sacrifice not because of the length of time but because he really didn't do much with what he had and it wasn't his to begin with. You know taking something from someone else and then being forced to return it is really not that big of a sacrifice..I don't consider him living with Stefano a sacrifice either...since that's where he pretty much has lived the majority of the time he's been in Salem. I would have seen a bigger sacrifice if Ej had worked real hard at building an empire of his own since Stefano disowned him. SOmething more legit and something that we actually SAW him work hard and long at acquiring....THEN he's forced to give THAT to Stefano in addition to the house and the power. Now THAT would be a true sacrifice, and it would have been even better if Sami had worked long and hard at buiilding that with him.....but to take something that was Stefano's away only to give it back in less then 6 months, living in the same house you lived in with Stefano before the take over, having Sami and the kids live there with you, when Sami actually didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back to me doesn't constitute a sacrifice of any kind.

EJ went back to being under Stefanoīs tumb in 2008 because Sami pushed him away, he betrayed his father for her but when he thought she didnīt want him he didnīt have a reason to stay away from Stefano anymore. He has loved both Samantha and his father but when it comes down to it he chooses Samantha when given a choice.
Yes.....all the other times Stefano has been able to lure EJ back in had comes on the heels of what EJ felt was betrayal by Sami. Pushing him away, trying to give his kids to that idiot Rafe. With Sami on his side its going to be much harder to lure EJ to do anything that will jeopardize his family with Sami and their kids.

And its not the "stuff" that EJ gave up that made it a sacrifice. It was the pride and accomplishment he felt at having been able to gain it all in the first place. It wasn't the stuff EJ was giving to Stefano, it was a part of his soul and it was a huge sacrifice for him. Sami realized it EJ went to hell for her and she wasn't going to leave him alone in it.

And as far as Sami leaving after the first little grey thing EJ does for Stefano I don't think that will happen. To me the writing seems to be making it apparent that this time Sami knows she's marrying a "DiMera" and she accepts it.
Ej acted out of his own accord on a few situations though that impacted Sami direction WITHOUT his father even knowing about it. I see Ej doing plenty on his own this time too...he'll likely blame Stefano for his decisions when the truth comes out, but in the end, it's all on EJ. Just like in the past....no one told him to kidnap Sydney, but he did it...without Stefano's knowledge.....he's had chances with Sami before and he's pretty much thrown those chances out the window and it's not because of Stefano.

I still don't see how stealing something that belongs to someone else and then being forced to give it back, grovel, beg and kiss the ring as a sacrifice. The sacrifice would have been if he worked long and hard to make something of his own and Stefano in exchange for helping Sami would have made him give it to him. that is a true sacrifice...but something that belonged to Stefano to begin with? yeah...no....

Oh and Sami isn't going to give a flying flip about him doing something grey to Stefano....he'll have her support when that happens....but doing something like lying, or stealing about something that her perceives would benefit her or them, but it ends up being such a huge gamble that it ends up hurting her in the end is something that I don't know if she'll be able to get past. Ej said something on Friday that I can only see it as foreshadowing...he said that sometimes you have to lie to keep the one you love. We are not aware of anything he's keeping from her recently...obviously there is a lot he hasn't told her that were written in by former writing teams that I don't think will be the focus of anything this writing team does, but there has to be something in the future that he'll lie about in an attempt to help her or them and it'll up being what ultimately destroys them. That just seemed like foreshadowing to me.

Edited by LuvingLumi, Oct 6 2013, 11:43 AM.
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six
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Kriss4
Oct 6 2013, 11:32 AM
Hey, six.

Here's an important scene about that subject you were asking about. It doesn't address your question exactly, but it's still pivotal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3mWxbQAdI
Thanks. Now I'm going to have to find the rest of this story. lol
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Kriss4


This one seems appropriate too, in view of what's going on with Kayla and Adrienne this week.

Keep in mind, though. Steve DID NOT kill Duke. Adrienne did, and Steve came in just afterward, and figured out that Duke had beat her up. Adrienne, traumatized, doesn't remember what actually happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInaVpG4CFw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2_J20XR5DM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpT7jKlAegE
Edited by Kriss4, Oct 6 2013, 12:06 PM.
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LuvingLumi
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♥ Lumi is Light, Lumi is Love ♥

six
Oct 6 2013, 11:02 AM
LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 09:51 AM
six
Oct 6 2013, 09:21 AM
Partnersincrime
Oct 6 2013, 08:51 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
This isn't the first time EJ has tried to get himself and his family out from under Stefano's thumb. Nobody should have a problem with Stefano's treatment of the kids, because he's good to them, when it comes to the day to day interactions. And I don't think you have to have possession of something for a certain length of time before giving it away becomes a sacrifice. If EJ won the lottery on Monday morning and used his winnings to buy Sami's freedom on Monday afternoon, that would still be a sacrifice.
Of the few times that Ej has tried to get away from Stefano, he's quickly gone back to being under Stefano out of his own accord. That I remember correctly, Stefano truly didn't have to hold a gun to his head to have Ej return to the fold, so while he's tried to do it before, he's never really succeeded and not because Stefano did something to oblige EJ, but because EJ wanted to be part of that again.

I don't consider what he did a huge sacrifice not because of the length of time but because he really didn't do much with what he had and it wasn't his to begin with. You know taking something from someone else and then being forced to return it is really not that big of a sacrifice..I don't consider him living with Stefano a sacrifice either...since that's where he pretty much has lived the majority of the time he's been in Salem. I would have seen a bigger sacrifice if Ej had worked real hard at building an empire of his own since Stefano disowned him. SOmething more legit and something that we actually SAW him work hard and long at acquiring....THEN he's forced to give THAT to Stefano in addition to the house and the power. Now THAT would be a true sacrifice, and it would have been even better if Sami had worked long and hard at buiilding that with him.....but to take something that was Stefano's away only to give it back in less then 6 months, living in the same house you lived in with Stefano before the take over, having Sami and the kids live there with you, when Sami actually didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back to me doesn't constitute a sacrifice of any kind.
I'm thinking of three separate occasions where he tried to get away from Stefano and he only went back willingly once (the 2008 time and the reasons why he went back have been covered). The other two times Stefano has forced him back into the family. And yes, EJ usually starts accepting and enjoying his relationship with Stefano again, because walking away from your family and the lifestyle that you know wouldn't be easy even if you hadn't been groomed to crave love and respect from someone like Stefano.

And it's not true that Sami didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back. She initially refused to move in, and once she did move in, she was very concerned about how it would affect EJ and warned him that if he got pulled in again, she would take him and the kids and leave. They could have given EJ a different sacrifice to make, and I do agree that it would have been more compelling if he'd built his own empire, but we'll have to agree to disagree about whether unwillingly living with someone as dangerous (and I mean emotionally, not physically) as Stefano is a sacrifice or not.

Also, Stefano isn't just someone - he's a dangerous psychopath. We were told that the loss of his company weakened him. That would have been a positive event for the whole town. This isn't returning the wallet you stole from a harmless old man. It would be like the State seizing a career criminal's fortune, then handing it back over and setting him loose on society.
Since when has Ej cared about 'society'? Seriously.....let's think...he terrorized the entire town and was GLEEFUL about it.....Your making it sound like Stefano is more of a psychopath and Ej's just been his little victim all this time. Let's be realistic here....Stefano and Ej are both psychopaths.....it's not like one is better than the other because one has children that are small...if anything we saw Stefano hurt and target his adult children....Ej's done that with his toddlers and we've seen decades of Stefano....comparing decades to 7 years, Ej's list of crazy crimes is extensive....it's pretty much equal to Stefano's in length at this point
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S loves EJ


LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 11:30 AM
S loves EJ
Oct 6 2013, 10:17 AM
LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 09:51 AM
six
Oct 6 2013, 09:21 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Of the few times that Ej has tried to get away from Stefano, he's quickly gone back to being under Stefano out of his own accord. That I remember correctly, Stefano truly didn't have to hold a gun to his head to have Ej return to the fold, so while he's tried to do it before, he's never really succeeded and not because Stefano did something to oblige EJ, but because EJ wanted to be part of that again.

I don't consider what he did a huge sacrifice not because of the length of time but because he really didn't do much with what he had and it wasn't his to begin with. You know taking something from someone else and then being forced to return it is really not that big of a sacrifice..I don't consider him living with Stefano a sacrifice either...since that's where he pretty much has lived the majority of the time he's been in Salem. I would have seen a bigger sacrifice if Ej had worked real hard at building an empire of his own since Stefano disowned him. SOmething more legit and something that we actually SAW him work hard and long at acquiring....THEN he's forced to give THAT to Stefano in addition to the house and the power. Now THAT would be a true sacrifice, and it would have been even better if Sami had worked long and hard at buiilding that with him.....but to take something that was Stefano's away only to give it back in less then 6 months, living in the same house you lived in with Stefano before the take over, having Sami and the kids live there with you, when Sami actually didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back to me doesn't constitute a sacrifice of any kind.

EJ went back to being under Stefanoīs tumb in 2008 because Sami pushed him away, he betrayed his father for her but when he thought she didnīt want him he didnīt have a reason to stay away from Stefano anymore. He has loved both Samantha and his father but when it comes down to it he chooses Samantha when given a choice.
IMHO that makes no sense...sure she leftt him, but wouldn't a life away from his father virtually guarantee that sooner or later she's see him for someone she's always wanted him to be and finally give in to her feelings? If anything the argument could have been made that EJ should have tried to make a name of hiimself outside of his father's influence BECAUSE he wanted Sami....and the fact that she had real reservation to being with him because of who he was and who his father was, was the best excuse to actually break free from Stefano. Instead he went back and frankly while he was with Nicole, and she was pregnant, he was pretty much not doing anything THAT horrible...he was the village idiot after all....so yeah, I don't see it that way at all.

Maybe EJ would have continue to fight for Sami if Nicole hasnīt gotten pregnant, but since he didnīt know where Sami was and Nicole was pregnant he decided to try to make it work with her. His father also told him to protect what was his meaning his child. I think EJ also thought he could have a relationship with his father without being pulled back to the dark side, but it did since he ended up putting a hit on Phillip and kidnapped Stefanie.
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somuchwhatever
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Brotherly Love

I want to say there was a discussion with Jack and Jo later on where she said that after dealing with how hard it was to give Steve and Billy away that she just couldn't do it again with Adrienne. I'll have to do some digging, too.

(Aaaaaand there goes my Sunday. LOL)
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Kriss4


somuchwhatever, I've also spent considerable time this Sunday finding scenes that would be appropriate to watch, given this week's potential scenes between our players. I hope we have scenes involving Adrienne and Kayla and Jennifer, where it's just them, and they can maybe talk about what they each experienced. Their situations were not similar, but were equally painful for them.

Man...the stuff is so good.
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Romancer66


somuchwhatever
Oct 6 2013, 11:57 AM
I want to say there was a discussion with Jack and Jo later on where she said that after dealing with how hard it was to give Steve and Billy away that she just couldn't do it again with Adrienne. I'll have to do some digging, too.

(Aaaaaand there goes my Sunday. LOL)
I can buy that--Jo did love all of her kids deeply, and I can imagine her finally breaking under the pain of giving up her sons and hanging on to her infant daughter. Did Duke even know Adrienne existed at the time? It still creeps me out that he didn't just commit rape, he committed incest when he forced himself on her.
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granolagirl
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six
Oct 6 2013, 11:14 AM
Thanks, what I'm wondering though, is why she'd give one infant away, then have another one and keep it. I guess the show probably didn't explain that, though.
Jo decided to give Steve and Jack away after Steve tried to kill Duke by starting a fire when Steve was five; Jo thought she was protecting Steve from Duke killing him. If Adrienne had been a boy I bet she might have given her away too so Duke wouldn't have felt threatened. It was a point of resentment for Steve (also when he found out that Jo had tried to get Jack (billy) back, but not him).
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six
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LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 11:50 AM
six
Oct 6 2013, 11:02 AM
LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 09:51 AM
six
Oct 6 2013, 09:21 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Of the few times that Ej has tried to get away from Stefano, he's quickly gone back to being under Stefano out of his own accord. That I remember correctly, Stefano truly didn't have to hold a gun to his head to have Ej return to the fold, so while he's tried to do it before, he's never really succeeded and not because Stefano did something to oblige EJ, but because EJ wanted to be part of that again.

I don't consider what he did a huge sacrifice not because of the length of time but because he really didn't do much with what he had and it wasn't his to begin with. You know taking something from someone else and then being forced to return it is really not that big of a sacrifice..I don't consider him living with Stefano a sacrifice either...since that's where he pretty much has lived the majority of the time he's been in Salem. I would have seen a bigger sacrifice if Ej had worked real hard at building an empire of his own since Stefano disowned him. SOmething more legit and something that we actually SAW him work hard and long at acquiring....THEN he's forced to give THAT to Stefano in addition to the house and the power. Now THAT would be a true sacrifice, and it would have been even better if Sami had worked long and hard at buiilding that with him.....but to take something that was Stefano's away only to give it back in less then 6 months, living in the same house you lived in with Stefano before the take over, having Sami and the kids live there with you, when Sami actually didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back to me doesn't constitute a sacrifice of any kind.
I'm thinking of three separate occasions where he tried to get away from Stefano and he only went back willingly once (the 2008 time and the reasons why he went back have been covered). The other two times Stefano has forced him back into the family. And yes, EJ usually starts accepting and enjoying his relationship with Stefano again, because walking away from your family and the lifestyle that you know wouldn't be easy even if you hadn't been groomed to crave love and respect from someone like Stefano.

And it's not true that Sami didn't care about living there with Stefano a few months back. She initially refused to move in, and once she did move in, she was very concerned about how it would affect EJ and warned him that if he got pulled in again, she would take him and the kids and leave. They could have given EJ a different sacrifice to make, and I do agree that it would have been more compelling if he'd built his own empire, but we'll have to agree to disagree about whether unwillingly living with someone as dangerous (and I mean emotionally, not physically) as Stefano is a sacrifice or not.

Also, Stefano isn't just someone - he's a dangerous psychopath. We were told that the loss of his company weakened him. That would have been a positive event for the whole town. This isn't returning the wallet you stole from a harmless old man. It would be like the State seizing a career criminal's fortune, then handing it back over and setting him loose on society.
Since when has Ej cared about 'society'? Seriously.....let's think...he terrorized the entire town and was GLEEFUL about it.....Your making it sound like Stefano is more of a psychopath and Ej's just been his little victim all this time. Let's be realistic here....Stefano and Ej are both psychopaths.....it's not like one is better than the other because one has children that are small...if anything we saw Stefano hurt and target his adult children....Ej's done that with his toddlers and we've seen decades of Stefano....comparing decades to 7 years, Ej's list of crazy crimes is extensive....it's pretty much equal to Stefano's in length at this point
I never said EJ cared about society or stole Stefano's company for the good of society, but his reasons for doing what he did don't change the point that his actions had a positive result. I also never said EJ was better, because he has young children. We never actually got the chance to see Stefano in action with any of his young children, with the exception of EJ, and we know he targeted him for kidnapping. We know he acquired Kristen and Peter through kidnapping and murder, so it's not like Stefano is above screwing up his kids while they're still little.

There's just no way all the crimes EJ committed rival all the crimes Stefano committed. And IIRC, Stefano has never made an attempt to clean up his act. EJ has, which automatically gives him the moral edge. EJ is absolutely a bad person and a dangerous person, but he didn't get that way all on his own.
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Kriss4


He wasn't threatened by Adrienne, and Adrienne later said that when she was a child, as long as he didn't hurt her, he could ensure that Jo did whatever he wanted.

But Jo had really left him this time, and he was trying to force her to return to him. Kayla had found a battered women's shelter for Jo, and Duke was really mad that he didn't know where Jo was. That's why he went to Adrienne's that night...to force her to tell him where her mother was. He started pushing her around, and then, he ripped her shirt. After that, he raped her.

Alerted by Jo, who didn't know where Adrienne was, Steve went looking for her. He found Duke on the floor, dead of a gunshot wound. Adrienne was on the bed, a gun clutched in her hand. Steve went over, took the gun from Adrienne, wiped off the fingerprints, and when Abe and Kayla arrived minutes later, started lying his head off in order to protect his baby sister.

Edited by Kriss4, Oct 6 2013, 09:06 PM.
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Kriss4


Did you go back up to the clips, six? I found some more for you. I think you'll find it very interesting...
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six
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Yes, thanks! I'm watching right now.
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six
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I went back to find the scene that Steve and Kayla mention at the station. Here it is, for others watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrBiEyH8LWg

I'm really surprised at how much I'm enjoying these clips. Thanks again for the links.
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esp13
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six
Oct 6 2013, 11:14 AM
Thanks, what I'm wondering though, is why she'd give one infant away, then have another one and keep it. I guess the show probably didn't explain that, though.
I'm not sure this has been answered yet because I haven't made it all the way through the thread. But, to the extent it was explained, it was basically that Jo couldn't bear to give up another and thought she could protect Adrienne.

The way it was explained was that Jo gave up Steve and Billy because Steve tried to kill Duke and she was afraid that Duke would hurt Steve and Billy after that. It wasn't really just because Duke was abusive but because of the fact that Steve tried to kill him to protect Jo. So, in a weird way it made sense that she would keep Adrienne.

I always wish they would have explored that more with Steve and Adrienne. Because Steve always hated that Jomgave him up, but I don't think Adrienne was thrilled that she had to grow up in that house. The different perspectives could have been really interesting.
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granolagirl
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TreasureCove
Oct 6 2013, 10:33 AM
This is actually a realistic situation that women who were molested and raped by family, and close family friends go through.

The family want her to just forget about it, to just get over it. She's tearing the family apart with her dramatics, why must she drag the family name through the mud? She's probably lying or exaggerating, and he never would have done anything unless she caused it to happen anyway.

Oprah Winfrey was raped by a close family friend. Her family stayed close to him even after they found out about it. She talked of a time when she was making breakfast for everyone and he came over. The house was filled with tension, and if she refused to make him breakfast too it would cause a scene that she knew her family didn't want. She didn't want to cause stress for her family. She was filled with helpless rage as she cooked her rapist eggs because it would ruin her family's nice morning if she didn't.
There was always such a stark difference between the way Adrienne and Kayla's rapes were treated by everyone. I remember the scene where Jack brought Duke's lookalike twin brother to Jo's party, and Adrienne freaked out and had to leave, and everybody was mad at Jack. Meanwhile Kayla was dealing with Jack almost every day (and at this point he was still kind of a jackass). I'm not downplaying Adrienne's particular trauma, and it was good that Kayla was healing enough to be able to do that. But it wasn't considered very often.
Edited by granolagirl, Oct 6 2013, 12:53 PM.
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Kriss4


I think it definitely adds another layer for Kayla that it was Jack that did it. Baby Billy, all grown up and there now, the baby that Jo and Stevie had so loved and missed for all those years. What Duke did to Adrienne was awful...traumatic, and just so, so terrible. But she killed him that night...she had issues over having done THAT, but she didn't have to deal with HIM anymore. He was gone.

Kayla, however, because she loved Steve, and because she knew how much Steve had always loved Billy, tried to move past it enough in the months after it happened so that Steve could try to build a relationship with him. Right after Jack found out he was a Johnson, Steve and Kayla talked, and she told him she understood if he wanted a relationship with his brother...and in spite of everything that happened, there was a part of him that did want that. But Jack was such a jerk after finding out the truth that Steve decided he didn't WANT a relationship with him for quite awhile. I understood why Jack hated the whole idea, and why he hated Steve, but I also sure understood why Steve couldn't stand Jack, either.

But it's because Kayla, in the months and years following the rape, tried so hard to let Steve build something with his brother in spite of what Jack had done to her...I KNOW Jack eventually admitted he was sorry and took responsibility...did his best to make amends in every way he could...Kayla did forgive him...and I don't think all her feelings about him are negative anymore, but there would be no way for all her feelings to be positive either.

I hope she doesn't spend all her time this week apologizing over her slip. She doesn't owe apologies. She was a victim, and most victims don't have to hear their rapists praised like they're the most wonderful person ever, so to me, the slip was understandable.

An explanation of how the slip happened? yeah. That makes sense. A wish not to see JJ hurt as a result of finding out the truth about his dad because of her slip? Yeah.

But apologies? No way.
Edited by Kriss4, Oct 6 2013, 01:44 PM.
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Kriss4


six, you might try The Guilty Plea clips next, if you've a mind to keep going.
Edited by Kriss4, Oct 6 2013, 01:21 PM.
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waterlilly
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Thank you so much for the clips, it has helped this newby a lot! Wow big diff between then and now, they were great then!
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S loves EJ


LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 11:40 AM
mollymay
Oct 6 2013, 10:36 AM
S loves EJ
Oct 6 2013, 10:17 AM
LuvingLumi
Oct 6 2013, 09:51 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep

EJ went back to being under Stefanoīs tumb in 2008 because Sami pushed him away, he betrayed his father for her but when he thought she didnīt want him he didnīt have a reason to stay away from Stefano anymore. He has loved both Samantha and his father but when it comes down to it he chooses Samantha when given a choice.
Yes.....all the other times Stefano has been able to lure EJ back in had comes on the heels of what EJ felt was betrayal by Sami. Pushing him away, trying to give his kids to that idiot Rafe. With Sami on his side its going to be much harder to lure EJ to do anything that will jeopardize his family with Sami and their kids.

And its not the "stuff" that EJ gave up that made it a sacrifice. It was the pride and accomplishment he felt at having been able to gain it all in the first place. It wasn't the stuff EJ was giving to Stefano, it was a part of his soul and it was a huge sacrifice for him. Sami realized it EJ went to hell for her and she wasn't going to leave him alone in it.

And as far as Sami leaving after the first little grey thing EJ does for Stefano I don't think that will happen. To me the writing seems to be making it apparent that this time Sami knows she's marrying a "DiMera" and she accepts it.
Ej acted out of his own accord on a few situations though that impacted Sami direction WITHOUT his father even knowing about it. I see Ej doing plenty on his own this time too...he'll likely blame Stefano for his decisions when the truth comes out, but in the end, it's all on EJ. Just like in the past....no one told him to kidnap Sydney, but he did it...without Stefano's knowledge.....he's had chances with Sami before and he's pretty much thrown those chances out the window and it's not because of Stefano.

I still don't see how stealing something that belongs to someone else and then being forced to give it back, grovel, beg and kiss the ring as a sacrifice. The sacrifice would have been if he worked long and hard to make something of his own and Stefano in exchange for helping Sami would have made him give it to him. that is a true sacrifice...but something that belonged to Stefano to begin with? yeah...no....

Oh and Sami isn't going to give a flying flip about him doing something grey to Stefano....he'll have her support when that happens....but doing something like lying, or stealing about something that her perceives would benefit her or them, but it ends up being such a huge gamble that it ends up hurting her in the end is something that I don't know if she'll be able to get past. Ej said something on Friday that I can only see it as foreshadowing...he said that sometimes you have to lie to keep the one you love. We are not aware of anything he's keeping from her recently...obviously there is a lot he hasn't told her that were written in by former writing teams that I don't think will be the focus of anything this writing team does, but there has to be something in the future that he'll lie about in an attempt to help her or them and it'll up being what ultimately destroys them. That just seemed like foreshadowing to me.


EJ also kidnapped Sydney because of Sami betraying him, if she had not kept her pregnancy a secret and not waited to tell him about their daughter until she thought her being dead the sydnapping would never have happend.
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