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Monday, November 4th Daily Discussion
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Topic Started: Nov 4 2013, 12:27 AM (14,522 Views)
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six
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Nov 5 2013, 09:49 AM
Post #341
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Marlena and Victor don't like Nick, though (well, Victor doesn't and I'd be surprised if Marlena does).
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Ophelia
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Nov 5 2013, 09:52 AM
Post #342
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I think it would hilarious if Victor brought in his expert and it turned out be the woman who handled Kristen's computer issues. :)
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Laufeyson
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Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Post #343
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- LuvingLumi
- Nov 5 2013, 09:33 AM
- Ophelia
- Nov 5 2013, 12:37 AM
- Dee-anne
- Nov 4 2013, 10:25 PM
- kay
- Nov 4 2013, 09:29 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Cant buy that. Not after watching his treatment of her recently. His willingness to believe that she could do such a horrendous thing to him, and his determination to not listen to a word she has to say. Not forgetting the fact that he has no concrete evidence to back up what he is saying. She is distraught and clearly very hurt by his accusations and it makes not the slightest difference to him. That is not my idea of a man in love, whether he is aware of it or not. I am more inclined to believe that he is not in love with her. Also with the writing for them, it has been Nicole that has been doing all the declarations of love and fantasising for over a year now. The closest we got from him, is telling father Matt that he loves her but, he is not in love with her, and a couple of scenes where he gives the impression that he was jealous of Brady, & Vargas. We were excusing it because he is a priest but, his behaviour these past days have been very unpriestlike, so they could have had him dreaming about Nicole if they wanted to, and maybe chastising himself after, we would not have held it against him. It would have been far better than his behaviour towards her now.
I wish I could remember the context, but we had a conversation in another thread about Eric's behavior as a priest, how he seemed to be overcompensating in his role, and perhaps he wasn't as sure about being a priest as he pretends to be. Unfortunately, I have no inkling at all what we were talking about beyond that conclusion. Eric has always struck me as a devout man who has had several experiences that pushed him toward the priesthood. There was the car accident with Jensen as Eric (and some weird stuff with Greta that I watched on YouTube a few months ago) and the situation in Africa off-screen with Eric 2.0. At the same time, I've not really gotten the feeling that he was called to the priesthood so much as he was pushed in that direction. Prior to the rape, he could be quite sanctimonious and he thoroughly enjoyed all the external validation of his choice to be a priest, but he hasn't been peaceful. He's been tormented by his dreams about Africa, by survivor's guilt, and (if the brief scenes with Father Matt are to be believed) by some residual feelings towards Nicole. Note: I'm not suggesting he's still in love with her, necessarily. Just that there are feelings there that may conflict with his mission. He doesn't strike me as someone who has found his calling in life, he strikes me as someone who is doing a penance for something. He's not unlike Nicole in this way. Now he is dealing with the horror of his rape. I get so lost on how many days have actually passed in Salem, but we're really talking about a very short amount of time since he found out. He's shell-shocked, he's angry and hurt and a thousand other things. On top of that, he's feeling guilty about breaking his vow, but something struck me as off about that conversation between them today when he was talking about how she wanted to sleep with him so badly that she was willing to drug him. Maybe it was just a strangeness in the dialogue, but it felt like there was an undercurrent of something there that I can't quite put my finger on. ETA: Perhaps what I'm thinking is that he has been using the priesthood as a shield. Not so much healing from his trauma and his guilt as hiding from it. Nicole, on the other hand, has been wearing her sins on her sleeve and has been slowly healing.
I think Nicole said something yesterday that made a lot of sense. She said that he wants to believe that she was capable of doing something so vile and disturbing to her because he NEEDS an excuse to remove her from his life now that he knows that she's in love with him. If you take that into context, it makes a lot of sense why he barely has even expressed any doubt that she'd ever do this. I also do think that from the point of the reveal forward we will see Eric struggling with understanding why he became a priest to begin with and this experience has rocked him in a way to finally face that head on. I wonder if Kristen disappearing isn't going to lead to Salemites (and Church officials) believing that Eric had consensual sex with Kristen and while she's missing, Nicole through her reporting job will make it her mission to clear Eric's name....IDK but I get a feeling that the fall out is only the beginning.....Eric's name won't be cleared immediately.... Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
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Laufeyson
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Nov 5 2013, 10:01 AM
Post #344
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- Keith
- Nov 5 2013, 09:33 AM
So, the love story is clearly Daniel and Nicole. Daniel believes her and Eric doesn't. amirite?
Bite your tongue!
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tomsawyer
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Nov 5 2013, 10:01 AM
Post #345
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- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will. I wonder if EJ will end up playing a role in clearing Eric. Other than Stefano, he's the only one that knows what Kristen really did. Unless she ends up confessing to Brady, which I kinda doubt she will do.
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six
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Nov 5 2013, 10:06 AM
Post #346
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- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
- LuvingLumi
- Nov 5 2013, 09:33 AM
- Ophelia
- Nov 5 2013, 12:37 AM
- Dee-anne
- Nov 4 2013, 10:25 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I wish I could remember the context, but we had a conversation in another thread about Eric's behavior as a priest, how he seemed to be overcompensating in his role, and perhaps he wasn't as sure about being a priest as he pretends to be. Unfortunately, I have no inkling at all what we were talking about beyond that conclusion. Eric has always struck me as a devout man who has had several experiences that pushed him toward the priesthood. There was the car accident with Jensen as Eric (and some weird stuff with Greta that I watched on YouTube a few months ago) and the situation in Africa off-screen with Eric 2.0. At the same time, I've not really gotten the feeling that he was called to the priesthood so much as he was pushed in that direction. Prior to the rape, he could be quite sanctimonious and he thoroughly enjoyed all the external validation of his choice to be a priest, but he hasn't been peaceful. He's been tormented by his dreams about Africa, by survivor's guilt, and (if the brief scenes with Father Matt are to be believed) by some residual feelings towards Nicole. Note: I'm not suggesting he's still in love with her, necessarily. Just that there are feelings there that may conflict with his mission. He doesn't strike me as someone who has found his calling in life, he strikes me as someone who is doing a penance for something. He's not unlike Nicole in this way. Now he is dealing with the horror of his rape. I get so lost on how many days have actually passed in Salem, but we're really talking about a very short amount of time since he found out. He's shell-shocked, he's angry and hurt and a thousand other things. On top of that, he's feeling guilty about breaking his vow, but something struck me as off about that conversation between them today when he was talking about how she wanted to sleep with him so badly that she was willing to drug him. Maybe it was just a strangeness in the dialogue, but it felt like there was an undercurrent of something there that I can't quite put my finger on. ETA: Perhaps what I'm thinking is that he has been using the priesthood as a shield. Not so much healing from his trauma and his guilt as hiding from it. Nicole, on the other hand, has been wearing her sins on her sleeve and has been slowly healing.
I think Nicole said something yesterday that made a lot of sense. She said that he wants to believe that she was capable of doing something so vile and disturbing to her because he NEEDS an excuse to remove her from his life now that he knows that she's in love with him. If you take that into context, it makes a lot of sense why he barely has even expressed any doubt that she'd ever do this. I also do think that from the point of the reveal forward we will see Eric struggling with understanding why he became a priest to begin with and this experience has rocked him in a way to finally face that head on. I wonder if Kristen disappearing isn't going to lead to Salemites (and Church officials) believing that Eric had consensual sex with Kristen and while she's missing, Nicole through her reporting job will make it her mission to clear Eric's name....IDK but I get a feeling that the fall out is only the beginning.....Eric's name won't be cleared immediately....
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will. I would think the hotel clerk's statement about the bribe and his medical records would help his case. Although Fr. Matt already seems to think that Eric and Nicole had an inappropriate relationship, so who knows what he would say if the church officials questioned him.
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esp13
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Nov 5 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #347
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- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will. I think the church will believe him. I mean, it's common knowledge that he was poisoned and hospitalized, so I don't think the church is going to just think he made it all up.
My guess is that it is not the rape that makes him question his vocation or gets him in trouble, but his reaction. I think his reaction to Nicole is going to make him question his calling and that is what will, ultimately, lead him to leave the priesthood.
And pagraves has been right in every post. If Eric didn't care about Nicole, didn't have feelings for her of some sort, didn't have a history with her, his reactions would have been much different. He's betrayed because of that history and I think he wants to believe it so that he has a reason to reject his feelings.
I know people want him to be the "only" person that believes in her and I still think that is true on some level. But, the scales were way out of balance between the two of them with Nicole's history (and long ago betrayal of Eric). There needed to be something to show that Eric was not perfect and could also make a horrible mistake/decision that could cause a lot of pain. So, I look forward to the fallout and the long term struggle that I hope is coming after the truth is revealed.
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camera shy
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Nov 5 2013, 10:17 AM
Post #348
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- tomsawyer
- Nov 5 2013, 10:01 AM
- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
I wonder if EJ will end up playing a role in clearing Eric. Other than Stefano, he's the only one that knows what Kristen really did. Unless she ends up confessing to Brady, which I kinda doubt she will do. I think she might end up confessing everything in the church......wanting Brady to understand why she did what she did......she had lost him. At their last almost wedding didn't she end up telling Brady everything?
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tomsawyer
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Nov 5 2013, 10:23 AM
Post #349
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- camera shy
- Nov 5 2013, 10:17 AM
- tomsawyer
- Nov 5 2013, 10:01 AM
- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
I wonder if EJ will end up playing a role in clearing Eric. Other than Stefano, he's the only one that knows what Kristen really did. Unless she ends up confessing to Brady, which I kinda doubt she will do.
I think she might end up confessing everything in the church......wanting Brady to understand why she did what she did......she had lost him. At their last almost wedding didn't she end up telling Brady everything? I'm not sure she will...
Spoiler: click to toggle We know that Eric's job is in jeopardy AFTER the big reveal. If she confessed everything at the non-wedding, there should be no reason for his job to be in jeopardy.
And really, I'd be disappointed if Kristen confessed and cleared Eric's name because we'd lose out on a good potential drama point.
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camera shy
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Nov 5 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #350
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- esp13
- Nov 5 2013, 10:12 AM
- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
I think the church will believe him. I mean, it's common knowledge that he was poisoned and hospitalized, so I don't think the church is going to just think he made it all up. My guess is that it is not the rape that makes him question his vocation or gets him in trouble, but his reaction. I think his reaction to Nicole is going to make him question his calling and that is what will, ultimately, lead him to leave the priesthood. And pagraves has been right in every post. If Eric didn't care about Nicole, didn't have feelings for her of some sort, didn't have a history with her, his reactions would have been much different. He's betrayed because of that history and I think he wants to believe it so that he has a reason to reject his feelings. I know people want him to be the "only" person that believes in her and I still think that is true on some level. But, the scales were way out of balance between the two of them with Nicole's history (and long ago betrayal of Eric). There needed to be something to show that Eric was not perfect and could also make a horrible mistake/decision that could cause a lot of pain. So, I look forward to the fallout and the long term struggle that I hope is coming after the truth is revealed. I think the church is going to play 'polltics' and think its in their best interest if Eric leaves the priesthood. And then we'll have Nicole storming in on one of their meetings setting them straight how Eric was the best priest they ever had and how they be a fool to lose him. Eric will raise his eyes from the ground to look at NIcole, amazed that she would stand up for him after the terrible way he has treated her.
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LonePirate
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Nov 5 2013, 10:35 AM
Post #351
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The martyrdom of St. Daniel of Orange is too fucking much for me. When JJ apologized and shook his hand, I experienced a fit of rage that would have prompted the Hulk to tell me to calm down. I couldn't reach for my FF button fast enough once JJ left the scene. Waterboarding is less torturous than Dannifer.
The rest of the show was watchable if not enjoyable. The Rafe and Jordan scenes were kinda cute even if they were generated a few groans from me. The Marlena and Victor stuff was great and the Nicole and Eric scenes were outstanding. Both AZ and GV have been on fire lately.
The upcoming wedding is going to be glorious. I just wish there was a way for Nicole to be in attendance. Can Brady apologize, beg and plead with Nicole to convince her to attend? She needs to be there as much as anyone else when the truth is revealed.
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LanaluvsBroe
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Nov 5 2013, 11:02 AM
Post #352
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- esp13
- Nov 5 2013, 10:12 AM
- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
I think the church will believe him. I mean, it's common knowledge that he was poisoned and hospitalized, so I don't think the church is going to just think he made it all up. My guess is that it is not the rape that makes him question his vocation or gets him in trouble, but his reaction. I think his reaction to Nicole is going to make him question his calling and that is what will, ultimately, lead him to leave the priesthood. And pagraves has been right in every post. If Eric didn't care about Nicole, didn't have feelings for her of some sort, didn't have a history with her, his reactions would have been much different. He's betrayed because of that history and I think he wants to believe it so that he has a reason to reject his feelings. I know people want him to be the "only" person that believes in her and I still think that is true on some level. But, the scales were way out of balance between the two of them with Nicole's history (and long ago betrayal of Eric). There needed to be something to show that Eric was not perfect and could also make a horrible mistake/decision that could cause a lot of pain. So, I look forward to the fallout and the long term struggle that I hope is coming after the truth is revealed. I agree with almost everything in this post. However, I do not think the church will believe him at least not at first. The video is heavily edited to make Eric look every bit as consenting as Kristen. And while he was sick the night of the rape there is nothing to prove he was actually poisoned. The only real evidence the church has at this point is the video which does not paint Eric in a good light at all. Without the original version of the video or Dr. Chyka's testimony about the drugs used they have nothing to prove Eric was raped.
That said, I do not want Eric leaving the priesthood because he was forced out. I want it to be HIS CHOICE. If the church does force him out I hope they recant their decision when the truth does come out about that night. Then, if they do offer him his job back, I do very much hope that he chooses to not go back having realized that he joined the priesthood for all the wrong reasons.
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jwsel
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Nov 5 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #353
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- Keith
- Nov 5 2013, 09:33 AM
I love how JJ apologizes in a logical situation, and everybody loses their mind.
So, the love story is clearly Daniel and Nicole. Daniel believes her and Eric doesn't. amirite?
Lysie, when you said Nick should be brought in to unencrypt the flashdrive, I nearly cheered. JJ apologizing was annoying because it was so predictable that the events beginning with the Jack reveal would lead to further sanctification of Daniel. And it only happened because the writers had Daniel suddenly act like JJ's best friend without any actual explanation for why he changed his attitude and behavior toward JJ.
That's what annoys me most of all. Yes it would be logical for JJ to come around to appreciating for what Daniel did for him and apologize. But what isn't logical is that Daniel actually covered for JJ in the first place -- let alone that JJ chose to call Daniel when an anonymous 911 call would have done the same thing. If the writers had shown Daniel being understanding of JJ on occasion, telling Jennifer that her son was probably having a hard time dealing with Jack's death and adjusting to her being with him, and maybe trying to talk with JJ about his issues during the past three to four months, then I might have been more willing to accept this. But for the past several months, Daniel was the one accusing JJ of misdeeds, telling Jennifer that she was enabling JJ, saying that JJ needed to be accountable for his actions, and pushing Jennifer to choose between her son and her relationship with Daniel. And during all that time when Jennifer was upset over her relationship with JJ, Daniel was basically telling Jennifer that it wasn't her fault; JJ was just rotten. So Daniel's sudden change of heart toward JJ is not consistent with anything that happened prior to the Jack reveal.
And I'm not saying that the Jack reveal couldn't have led Daniel to change his views. It just should have been explained. Maybe the Jack reveal changed Daniel's mind and made him sympathetic. Maybe the writers could have even used that to give us a tidbit of insight into Daniel's past, by having him reveal some reason why he related to what JJ's going through. But we didn't get that. We only got told that Daniel loves Jennifer, so he'll sacrifice his relationship to protect her son -- something that makes no fucking sense when we got no sense of that self-sacrifice from him for the past few months.
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JillianJ
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Nov 5 2013, 11:51 AM
Post #354
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- tomsawyer
- Nov 5 2013, 10:01 AM
- Laufeyson
- Nov 5 2013, 09:57 AM
Without the original tape(s) I do think it will be hard to prove rape, his family (except for maybe Brady) and friends will believe him but I doubt the church will.
I wonder if EJ will end up playing a role in clearing Eric. Other than Stefano, he's the only one that knows what Kristen really did. Unless she ends up confessing to Brady, which I kinda doubt she will do. EJ can help get the doctor who gave Kristen the poison.
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pagraves
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Nov 5 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #355
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You know, I'm just glad there's a storyline on the show that's got enough actual depth to be argued about. I was thinking about how they're writing the Nicole/Eric stuff (and how the actors are acting it), and it struck me that what's sucking me in is the subtlety of emotion. They ARE keeping Eric's emotions hard to read, but I think that's because he's generally suppressing them in his quest to be a good priest. While Nicole, who lately wears her heart on her sleeve, is working so hard to be cool outwardly with Eric but then acting out her frustration and need in other ways, which we don't see Eric get to do. I'm hoping that this new turn in the story puts the shoe on the other foot, and we have Nicole hurt and closing up, while Eric is forced to examine those inconvenient things he's feeling - both anger and other emotions that he's tried to keep under a lid so long.
Really good screenwriting takes advantage of the subtext - what's not said verbally but what's clearly said through the acting. This storyline has done a better job of letting the subtext play a large role in scenes than any storyline I've seen on this show in a long time. And I think that may be why so many of us are reacting to it so positively.
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esp13
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Nov 5 2013, 01:22 PM
Post #356
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- pagraves
- Nov 5 2013, 12:18 PM
Really good screenwriting takes advantage of the subtext - what's not said verbally but what's clearly said through the acting. This storyline has done a better job of letting the subtext play a large role in scenes than any storyline I've seen on this show in a long time. And I think that may be why so many of us are reacting to it so positively. Yep! I've used this quote before, but it sticks with me so I'll use it again. In an interview, I heard Sheri Anderson say that she deliberately wrote scenes in a way that allowed the actors to fill out the dialogue (okay, it's not a quote so much as a paraphrase). She said she wanted to give the actors as much room as possible to do their jobs in terms of creating and developing a character. And that's what good actors do. Now, to be fair, even the best actors can't fill all the holes when the writing sucks or does 180s every day, but when good writing lets good actors do their jobs, you get mountains of subtext that fill out the whole story.
And that's what we've finally got with Eric and Nicole. The writing has done it's part and the actors have clearly taken the time and effort to develop the subtext that adds emotional heft to the scenes. In some ways, this is what makes it feel like old school soap even more than the push/pull of the characters.
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pagraves
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Nov 5 2013, 01:27 PM
Post #357
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In defense of the writers (did I just say that?) it's harder to let subtext run a scene when the actors aren't capable (or don't have time) to work on digging out the nuggets of meaning in the text. Some actors on the show can't handle subtext and probably shouldn't try. I'm just glad they found a pairing that can.
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Keith
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Nov 5 2013, 01:29 PM
Post #358
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- pagraves
- Nov 5 2013, 01:27 PM
In defense of the writers (did I just say that?) it's harder to let subtext run a scene when the actors aren't capable (or don't have time) to work on digging out the nuggets of meaning in the text. Some actors on the show can't handle subtext and probably shouldn't try. I'm just glad they found a pairing that can. That's a bad reason not to write. IMO. Most actors will rise to the occasion.
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esp13
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Nov 5 2013, 01:47 PM
Post #359
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- pagraves
- Nov 5 2013, 01:27 PM
In defense of the writers (did I just say that?) it's harder to let subtext run a scene when the actors aren't capable (or don't have time) to work on digging out the nuggets of meaning in the text. Some actors on the show can't handle subtext and probably shouldn't try. I'm just glad they found a pairing that can. This is very true too. I can think of one actor *coughMissyReevescough* who has never, ever been able to play subtext. But I do think more of them can do it if given the opportunity. But good subtext requires some confidence that the story is not going to do a 180 in a week. You can't play a particular through line in the subtext of the dialogue if you figure that through line is going to change in a week or two. Well you can, but it just adds to the WTFery and I can't blame an actor who isn't going to commit to something when the writers won't commit either.
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NocturnalBlondie
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Nov 5 2013, 02:03 PM
Post #360
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- jwsel
- Nov 5 2013, 12:05 AM
- esp13
- Nov 4 2013, 11:17 PM
- NocturnalBlondie
- Nov 4 2013, 06:41 PM
- esp13
- Nov 4 2013, 06:32 PM
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Given JJ was supposed to be a troubled teen, it's not that far fetch (no pun intended) that he would turn to vandalism. And yes, Abby hasn't had a problem with Jennifer and her immediate involvement with Daniel, but that's been considered offensive to many fans who see the whole thing as implausible especially since she was literally pushing her mother towards Daniel at the time of the funeral almost. Personally, I think out of the two Deveraux kids, Abby's reaction has been more OTT. Both she and JJ were on different extremes in dealing with the situation, but I consider it more plausible to see aggression than having someone in such a rush to move on, or have someone else move on.
I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time with the idea that when a parent moves on after losing a spouse (no matter how quickly) that the appropriate and rational response is vandalism and rage while the inappropriate and irrational response is love and support. Especially when the person being moved on with is somebody who was previously involved with that parent. I mean it's not like Jennifer picked up a stranger at a bar two days after Jack's memorial and moved him into the Horton house. She and Daniel were together before Jack came back and they didn't split because they didn't care anymore. Abby's reaction was exactly what it should have been because she's an adult who can comprehend complex emotions. JJ's was way over the top and I'm glad he finally figured that out. It gives me a little hope for the character.
I don't think anyone is saying JJ's response was rational. I think what some of us are saying is that JJ's response was natural and understandable. Teens are not rational. Teens who have suffered profound hurt and are neglected are even less rational. So JJ lashed out at a logical target -- Daniel -- the guy he saw as replacing his father. So, yeah, it's not rational, but ask any step-parent of a teen and they will probably tell you plenty of stories of the hatred they received when they came into the picture. Hell, what JJ did to Daniel doesn't come close to what my teen brothers put my stepmother and stepfather through when my parents split. THANK YOU.
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