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Monday, February 3rd Daily Discussion
Topic Started: Feb 3 2014, 12:11 AM (22,310 Views)
elci525
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tomsawyer
Feb 3 2014, 10:58 PM
elci525
Feb 3 2014, 09:57 PM
Kaha
Feb 3 2014, 09:22 PM
lysie
Feb 3 2014, 08:57 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
If I remember correctly, her feelings were so strong that she was willing to risk the desolation of her marriage over it. She didn't want Justin working with EJ and she was angry about it. She even asked him at one point why isn't he bothered by the fact that his son is "practically part of the Dimera family." Adrianne's feelings were not ambiguous but they were lacking background or motivation. If only the writers weren't bent on whitewashing EJ's sordid history, it would have been a great drama.

I don't understand why is EJ a sacred cow. The writers were not troubled by dredging up Jack's violent history, so, why not EJ's. It might actually make the Ejabby s/l more interesting. Abby could be struggling to reconcile the man she's beginning to care about to the man who caused her family so much pain.
I am enjoying Ejabby, and both Abby and EJ in the s/l (or plot twist, however you want to look at it), and I can rationalize all the actions taken from here till next month. But I do agree that Abby fully acknowledging the bad things EJ has done to her family and grappling with how she can square her passion and developing like for this man, while also being aware of the criminal he is, would make the story better. Of course it would, and maybe that is to come (maayyyybbeeee, although from spoilers the show seems more intent on showing how Abby is obsessed and can't let go, which is a shame imo). It's odd because this thing with EJ being called out as a "bad man" by Abby so often, you would think, would be tantamount to her outwardly acknowledging his history as a bad man. Jennifer has pointed out over and over again what bad news the DiMeras are, so I think this fact is definitely on Abby's brain. And I feel like I have seen her conflicted about how the "good character" she aims or purports to be, is in direct contradiction with her behavior. But it seems to be conflict about the illicitness of the affair, I guess, or how it's in violation of commandments, or how the DiMeras are "bad" in a vague, catch-all kind of way. We've had many of these "what am I doing/what is wrong with me" scenes. She has stated she realizes how out of her mind she's acting, but that might have more to do with the spontaneous sex than anything else. It would be great if she could give specific voice to how she can't help but see EJ differently now.

I think that's the voice that was speaking to Adrienne today, but in an overzealous, overly-assured, myopic kind of way. It just felt to me Abby was running on this high of ill-advised self-assuredness, maybe partly informed by the fact she's in possession of this big secret, maybe partly by a fool-hardy entitlement she thinks she has, because she certainly "knows" EJ in a way Adrienne doesn't. These are all hypotheticals of course, so I guess that means I am just fanwanking. But mix this kind of new confidence with her (more justifiable, imo) indignation that Adrienne would make an assumption, and then speak to Jennifer about it directly before speaking with Abby, gets you that confrontation from today. I am not saying Abby didn't act like an ass - I called her a twat - but I can see what motivated it (other than lazy writing).

Did I have a point here? Oh yeah, to say that Abby not whitewashing or conveniently forgetting what EJ has done to make him this "bad man" she likes to call him, would help anchor the story for sure.
It's fanwanking, elci, but it's good fanwanking. That is, I think you are articulating some logical and well thought out reasoning for why Abby is behaving as she is. But the problem and the reason why it's fanwanking is that's not the story they're bothering to put on-screen. And really, the bigger issue is that the writers aren't thinking a tenth as much about Abby's character motivation as you are. I can pretty much guarantee that today's scenes between Adrienne and Abby had NOTHING to do with trying to further develop and demonstrate Abby's POV and motivation for how she's feeling or acting at this moment, and EVERYTHING to do with setting up some plot point that will happen in the future. TomSell are good at that. They're good plot writers. They know how to pace a story and create twists. But they're horrible character writers. And that's why they'll never be great because the great soap writers can do both. Plots entertain me. Days usually entertains me. But great character writing moves me. And the only time I've been moved in the last 18 months is with Ericole. That's is, just two characters and one story out of the dozens and dozens over the last year. That's too bad because great soap can and should move you.
Well yeah I definitely saw what the very obvious, simple plot "motivations" for Abby mouthing off to Adrienne about EJ today were. And for the record, I knew I was "fanwanking" or at least hole/motivation filling even though my post may have made it sound like I wasn't sure what my theories amounted to. I just can understand why Abby acted as cocksure and entitled with Adrienne as she did today in terms of knowing the "real" EJ or the EJ Adrienne doesn't know, and so I was explaining. I didn't feel myself trying to argue that in fact the sky is not blue it's secretly an invisible houndstooth pattern in order to make these inferences. It would be wonderful if the show more explicitly narrated these emotions and motivations rather than going full force on plot so that we have to fill in holes where we see deficits - no question! And, you know, at the end of the day maybe Abby just acted like a douche and Adrienne a busybody. That's ok too. But making interpretations about characters actions is something I do all the time, and I think that's part of being a thoughtful viewer. I am not claiming the scenes had anything to do with developing Abby's character, I guess, but I was trying to offer suggestions for WHY she defended EJ so stridently to the point of "forgetting" why Adrienne would know him well (based on his past actions to her family). That Abigail romanticizes EJ has been established, and I fully believe she was justifiably upset with Adrienne for the assumptions and tattling. And there have been a few moments when Abigail has sporadically wanted to assert her adulthood independence - such as her insistence right after cabinsexromp#1 that EJ didn't take advantage of her (which she then negated when she said he did, lol), or during her conversation with EJ in today's show where she insisted "if" the affair was over she'd be ok with it dammit!! So I use some of these instances to inform my interpretations. All of that doesn't excuse the lazy non-character driven storytelling or the show very pointedly wanting to ignore EJ's bad behavior (and I agree this comes from its inability to write him as a leading romantic hero as well as a villain), but forming opinions about why characters act as they do has forever been part of soap-watching for me. I guess I have been fan-wanking since 1995!

Come to think of it, and this has probably been mentioned already, but Abby acting as if Adrienne had no basis to claim she knows EJ, wasn't as strange to me as Adrienne NOT coming back at her with exactly why young missything was totally wrong. Again, for Abby to be indignant and on her sassy-horse seems pretty in character for her imo, and I can buy she "forgot" EJ's crimes for that moment in the conversation (since she was on a mission to prove a different point). What made less sense to me was Adrienne not laying some truth back on her. This would have been great! In fact, I don't think we ever actually saw Adrienne observe Ejabby, have a moment of thoughtfulness and recognition, or speak to Jennifer, right? We only have Jennifer reporting what Adrienne told her? Well to me all of this happening off-camera instantly robs Adrienne of agency and reduces her to a meddling busybody, which is all the show seemed interested in painting her as today (which is why she wasn't allowed to "remember" or specify EJs crimes either, at least for that moment). So, yeah, I guess my point is I see the EJ-is-bad amnesia less a fault of Abby's and more a fault of the show, if that makes sense....but I agree it's still a problem whenever it happens. In this particular case, I can understand Abby "forgetting" in her rush to prove a point, but I understand less Adrienne "forgetting" since Abby's hyperbole put in her prime position to lay down some massive truth.

In any event, I agree rather unequivocally with the overall point that the show should focus on character writing versus plot hopping - except for when the plot hops to places I enjoy ;)
Edited by elci525, Feb 4 2014, 09:11 AM.
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BeeBee


Kaha
Feb 3 2014, 10:35 PM
lysie
Feb 3 2014, 10:26 PM
Kaha
Feb 3 2014, 10:08 PM
elci525
Feb 3 2014, 09:57 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
You make great points and your rational is sound.

I wouldn't even mind if she was the catalyst for his redumption. But they cannot ignore EJ's past, specially since he inflicted unspeakable pain on people who are very close to her. You cannot tell me that Abby cares about her third cousin Nick and goes on and on about the meaning of family, yet she doesn't really care about uncle Steve or cousin Stephanie. She was an adult and in town when EJ harmed her cousin Stephanie. But the show is choosing to portray Adrienne as a busybody who's gossiping about silly things, instead of someone who has a legitimate greavance about the man who hurt her family.
Considering how their "relationship" is starting, I don't see how Abby could possibly be the catalyst for his redemption. Definitely not in a well written story (so there's my answer). She's too wrong about him to redeem him.
The way the s/l is going, you are correct but they can still write an interesting storyline. But they won't. It'll be a silly story where we will hate both women. Sami will act like a clueless idiot and Abby will pretent that she knows EJ more than anyone. Every other character will be sacrificed because no one is allowed to mention why they don't like EJ and don't want him with Abby.
I won't dislike Abby unless the affair continues after EJ and Sami marry.I like the EJ/Abby story as written because I like both characters and don't know a lot of back story so I am not bothered by the same issues that bother others.This may very well be true of some new viewers.I have a better memory about what has happened since 2009 which is when I began to watch the show on a daily basis.I learn quite a bit about characters by reading the posts of others on this site who recall events in detail that occurred twenty years ago or more.I am happier watching the show because it is just a little escapism in the middle of the day.If I can suspend belief enought to accept Jack returning to Salem after having his organs harvested and donated to others,I am not going to quibble about out of character writing for the denizens of Salem when I am getting storylines I enjoy like EJ/Abby,Nicole/Eric,Sonny/Will,Rafe/Jordan,Hope/Aiden,Kate,Nick,Stefano,drunk Brady,JJ,and no Fetch.And I am looking forward to seeing John,Kristin,and Eve arrive.Too much to like for me to focus on what I dislike.
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Trevor


leragan
Feb 3 2014, 09:44 PM
Anyone else get the feeling EJ will end up being JJ's substitute attorney?
The same thought crossed my mind and I remember seeing a spoiler about Abby being in an uncomfortable situation with EJ due to Adrienne. I think that is it.
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Kaha
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Trevor
Feb 3 2014, 11:41 PM
leragan
Feb 3 2014, 09:44 PM
Anyone else get the feeling EJ will end up being JJ's substitute attorney?
The same thought crossed my mind and I remember seeing a spoiler about Abby being in an uncomfortable situation with EJ due to Adrienne. I think that is it.
Didn't Adrienne say the lawyer is from Justin's firm? I doubt it will be EJ. I think it's Aidan.
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BeeBee


lysie
Feb 3 2014, 11:05 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 11:01 PM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 09:56 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 09:48 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
From Pat's recap:

"Abby - Excuse me, Aunt Adrienne, what do you know about him? You don't know anything about him so why don't you keep an open mind the way my parents have taught me . . ."

The bolded is what I am talking about. She's telling Adrienne that she doesn't know anything about EJ. It's not a family secret what EJ did to Steve and Abby was in town for it.
Well Maggie and I believe Julie were in Salem when Nick was exhibiting homophobic behavior,blackmailing Will,manipulating Gabi,and attacking Gabi but they don't know it happened.If Adrienne had replied,"I do know EJ and what he is capable of because he did ..... to my brother Steve and .....to my niece Stephanie."I might feel differently.
If Abby in fact knows what EJ did to Steve and Stephanie,why would she ask what Adrienne knew about him or say that Adrienne doesn't know anything about him?
Because she's an idiot. Just like Sami.
Atleast you're the one dragging Sami into this time.
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BeeBee


esp13
Feb 3 2014, 11:11 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 11:01 PM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 09:56 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 09:48 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
From Pat's recap:

"Abby - Excuse me, Aunt Adrienne, what do you know about him? You don't know anything about him so why don't you keep an open mind the way my parents have taught me . . ."

The bolded is what I am talking about. She's telling Adrienne that she doesn't know anything about EJ. It's not a family secret what EJ did to Steve and Abby was in town for it.
Well Maggie and I believe Julie were in Salem when Nick was exhibiting homophobic behavior,blackmailing Will,manipulating Gabi,and attacking Gabi but they don't know it happened.If Adrienne had replied,"I do know EJ and what he is capable of because he did ..... to my brother Steve and .....to my niece Stephanie."I might feel differently.
If Abby in fact knows what EJ did to Steve and Stephanie,why would she ask what Adrienne knew about him or say that Adrienne doesn't know anything about him?
Because the show wants to pretend it didn't happen. But Abby was there and, in fact, expressed sympathy to Kayla when Steve was in the mental hospital. It's impossible for me to believe she wasn't told the whole story by Stephanie if nobody else.
Abby might know the what but not who was involved.If you don't have an on screen conversation where EJ's name was specifically mentioned between Abby and Kayla or Abby and Stephanie or have the character mention what they were told by another character,you don't know that Abby actually knows EJ's role in what happened to Steve and/or Stephanie.
You would think that someone would have told Maggie,Julie,Jennifer,or Abby about Nick's homophobia and blackmailing of Will but based on the fact that none of them have said a word about either,I don't think they were told.
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Trevor


Kaha
Feb 3 2014, 11:50 PM
Trevor
Feb 3 2014, 11:41 PM
leragan
Feb 3 2014, 09:44 PM
Anyone else get the feeling EJ will end up being JJ's substitute attorney?
The same thought crossed my mind and I remember seeing a spoiler about Abby being in an uncomfortable situation with EJ due to Adrienne. I think that is it.
Didn't Adrienne say the lawyer is from Justin's firm? I doubt it will be EJ. I think it's Aidan.
I don't remember the details of who she said it would be except the person is supposed to be good or something close to that? all I know is EJ popped into my mind.
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esp13
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BeeBee
Feb 4 2014, 12:01 AM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 11:11 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 11:01 PM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 09:56 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepExcuse me, Aunt Adrienne, what do you know about him? You don't know anything about him so why don't you keep an open mind the way my parents have taught me . . ."

The bolded is what I am talking about. She's telling Adrienne that she doesn't know anything about EJ. It's not a family secret what EJ did to Steve and Abby was in town for it.
Well Maggie and I believe Julie were in Salem when Nick was exhibiting homophobic behavior,blackmailing Will,manipulating Gabi,and attacking Gabi but they don't know it happened.If Adrienne had replied,"I do know EJ and what he is capable of because he did ..... to my brother Steve and .....to my niece Stephanie."I might feel differently.
If Abby in fact knows what EJ did to Steve and Stephanie,why would she ask what Adrienne knew about him or say that Adrienne doesn't know anything about him?
Because the show wants to pretend it didn't happen. But Abby was there and, in fact, expressed sympathy to Kayla when Steve was in the mental hospital. It's impossible for me to believe she wasn't told the whole story by Stephanie if nobody else.
Abby might know the what but not who was involved.If you don't have an on screen conversation where EJ's name was specifically mentioned between Abby and Kayla or Abby and Stephanie or have the character mention what they were told by another character,you don't know that Abby actually knows EJ's role in what happened to Steve and/or Stephanie.
You would think that someone would have told Maggie,Julie,Jennifer,or Abby about Nick's homophobia and blackmailing of Will but based on the fact that none of them have said a word about either,I don't think they were told.
And, once again, shitty storytelling and plot holes in one story do not excuse them in another. I certainly agree that Julie, Maggie, and Hope should know whether they do or not. And if they don't know, that's just another piece of crap writing which only proves my point about the failure of the writers to tell the story. My criticism is the same either way. If Abby knows, she's being an ass. If she doesn't know, then she's clearly stupid. Either way, it makes me think the character kind of sucks.
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Kaha
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Okay, I am beginning to get really tired of the non murder s/l. How many ways can Nick say to the Coven that he knows what they did to him? Just get it over with. It's becoming unbearable.

I also, hate EJ's attitude towards the Coven, specially Gabi. The girl needs some perspective, and to stay away from the man who tortured her brother. I don't understand why all these women are acting like dumb damsels in distress running to EJ everytime someone says boo to them?
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trojangal
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esp13
Feb 4 2014, 12:15 AM
BeeBee
Feb 4 2014, 12:01 AM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 11:11 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 11:01 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepExcuse me, Aunt Adrienne, what do you know about him? You don't know anything about him so why don't you keep an open mind the way my parents have taught me . . .
Because the show wants to pretend it didn't happen. But Abby was there and, in fact, expressed sympathy to Kayla when Steve was in the mental hospital. It's impossible for me to believe she wasn't told the whole story by Stephanie if nobody else.
Abby might know the what but not who was involved.If you don't have an on screen conversation where EJ's name was specifically mentioned between Abby and Kayla or Abby and Stephanie or have the character mention what they were told by another character,you don't know that Abby actually knows EJ's role in what happened to Steve and/or Stephanie.
You would think that someone would have told Maggie,Julie,Jennifer,or Abby about Nick's homophobia and blackmailing of Will but based on the fact that none of them have said a word about either,I don't think they were told.
And, once again, shitty storytelling and plot holes in one story do not excuse them in another. I certainly agree that Julie, Maggie, and Hope should know whether they do or not. And if they don't know, that's just another piece of crap writing which only proves my point about the failure of the writers to tell the story. My criticism is the same either way. If Abby knows, she's being an ass. If she doesn't know, then she's clearly stupid. Either way, it makes me think the character kind of sucks.
I think the problem is when characters are no longer on the show the writers act as if they never existed .
For example since Steve & Stephanie are no longer in Salem whatever happened to them is ignored.
They did the same thing when Kristen returned to Salem & Jen was her BFF despite what Kristen did to
Laura and the whole Peter thing was also ignored.
It is a stupid move by the writers because the stories make no sense since the audience knows what really happened.
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SaveDaysNow


I like Abby. But her "work" outfits are way too sexy for a hospital and unprofessional. I wonder why Anne hasn't sent her home. High slit leather skirts and deep v-necks makes it seem she's is dressing for potential run-ins with EJ. I don't recall her being in wardrobe so provacative pre-cabin tryst, but I could be wrong.

DAYS wardrobe hates Gabi. And Kate. They both look like circus clowns most of the time, and that is something since Sami has always lacked in the style department but is making them look good.
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Tripp
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esp13
Feb 4 2014, 12:15 AM
BeeBee
Feb 4 2014, 12:01 AM
esp13
Feb 3 2014, 11:11 PM
BeeBee
Feb 3 2014, 11:01 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepExcuse me, Aunt Adrienne, what do you know about him? You don't know anything about him so why don't you keep an open mind the way my parents have taught me . . .
Because the show wants to pretend it didn't happen. But Abby was there and, in fact, expressed sympathy to Kayla when Steve was in the mental hospital. It's impossible for me to believe she wasn't told the whole story by Stephanie if nobody else.
Abby might know the what but not who was involved.If you don't have an on screen conversation where EJ's name was specifically mentioned between Abby and Kayla or Abby and Stephanie or have the character mention what they were told by another character,you don't know that Abby actually knows EJ's role in what happened to Steve and/or Stephanie.
You would think that someone would have told Maggie,Julie,Jennifer,or Abby about Nick's homophobia and blackmailing of Will but based on the fact that none of them have said a word about either,I don't think they were told.
And, once again, shitty storytelling and plot holes in one story do not excuse them in another. I certainly agree that Julie, Maggie, and Hope should know whether they do or not. And if they don't know, that's just another piece of crap writing which only proves my point about the failure of the writers to tell the story. My criticism is the same either way. If Abby knows, she's being an ass. If she doesn't know, then she's clearly stupid. Either way, it makes me think the character kind of sucks.
Such different opinions. This whole "does Abby know or not know" doesn't really bother me at all. Do I wish the show would approach it? yes. But the show has always dropped the ball in regards to diving into past characters evil evil evil deeds. At least in the last 10 years or more. Ej isn't the first character they did this with, I remember Stephanie befriended Philip almost immediately without the slightest concern he terrorized her cousin Shawn (and Belle) or Victor's horrific treatment of the Johnsons.

I just don't get why Abby is held to a higher standard than Sami who actually has had evil deeds done directly to her by EJ himself. If I can accept Sami's love for EJ in spite of all the horrific things he's done actually to her, then I can accept Abby's possible ignorance of EJ's past deeds done to the Johnson side of the family (that we see such little interaction).

The whole reason I actually am drawn to Abby and EJ isnt because of their chemistry, it's the fact that EJ and Abby have had very little interaction between each other. All this time in Salem, all these years the characters have been on canvas, they have had no interaction other than civil remarks at social gatherings. You can take their story pretty much anywhere you want it to go as well pit EJ up with a new family (the Hortons). Will Abby become disillusioned with EJ as she gets to know him? Most probably. I'm curious to see how that goes. Or maybe they will take Abigail to the dark side which certainly would shake up the Hortons a bit. I see many more possibilities than a simple a redemption story (and with EJ, it can't be simple).

If you break up Ejami, which now that AS is leaving you have to, pairing EJ back with Nicole won't work for me. They ruined that with all the shit he's done to her including making her freaking scared to death of him. Is EJ capable of treating a woman right? I dont know. He hasn't done that for his current relationships but I am curious to see if the Ejabby pairing will work.

And finally, Ive said it before and say it again. I do not think Ejabby are anything like J/J. Jack and EJ are miles apart, even when Jack was his worst, he was never as despicable as EJ is at his worst.
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tomsawyer
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Kaha
Feb 4 2014, 12:24 AM
Okay, I am beginning to get really tired of the non murder s/l. How many ways can Nick say to the Coven that he knows what they did to him? Just get it over with. It's becoming unbearable.

I also, hate EJ's attitude towards the Coven, specially Gabi. The girl needs some perspective, and to stay away from the man who tortured her brother. I don't understand why all these women are acting like dumb damsels in distress running to EJ everytime someone says boo to them?
Yes, now that I've post ad nauseum about the piss poor character writing for Abby, please allow me to turn my attention to Gabi.

Here's my caveats before my diatribe. (1) it cracks me the fuck up every time EJ rolls his eyes at Gabi because that's how EJ SHOULD be responding when confronted with the annoying, naive behavior of one of Salem tweens (you know, as opposed to fucking them). (2) CB is killing it as clueless, over-reactionary Gabi and she's making her all kinds of hilarious.

Ok, with that said, what in the FUCK is Gabi doing with the hero worship of EJ??? Seriously, this girl knows every damn thing he's done to her BELOVED brother over the past five years, including kidnapping him, erasing his memory and trying to kill him. Let me repeat that... kidnapping, erasing the memory of and trying to kill her BROTHER. It's beyond ridiculous that she'd stand to be in the same room with him, let alone extolling his praises and bringing him baskets of churros. Seriously, WTF!?!?!?!?!
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iheartwilson
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Supergirlx2
Feb 4 2014, 12:04 AM
That scarf looks really weird on Nick.
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