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SOD: Summer Preview Summary
Topic Started: May 23 2014, 01:28 AM (15,220 Views)
jam6242
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trojangal
May 24 2014, 04:42 PM
jam6242
May 24 2014, 04:36 PM
Did Hope and Eve ever interact? I think the characters were only in Salem at the same time for a very short time period.
Hope died around the time of "the Cruise of Deception" & I remember Eve being around before the cruise
but I don't remember them interacting. Then again I watched those scenes over 20 years ago probably
once live so I could have missed some stuff
Yeah, that was the time period I was thinking of but I don't remember Hope and Eve interacting. Hope was only back for about three months at that time.
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tomsawyer
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lysie
May 24 2014, 03:07 PM
marie1969
May 24 2014, 08:02 AM
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
Supergirlx2
May 24 2014, 12:45 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Besides. A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
After re-reading your post, I think I get what you meant now. you are saying that even though others have forgiven cheating in the past, Sami should not because of her experience with Jarlena. I don't agree, but I get it.

But my point is not whether of not she should because forgiveness to me is a personal choice. But rather is it fair for her to be judged for doing the same thing others have done in the past with great support from the audience?

I guess it comes down to personal preference. If we love the couple, we want them to forgive each other even after cheating. If we detest the couple, we want them to do the opposite.
I'm not saying that at all. I didn't even mention Jarlena. I guess that's a part of it, but it's not relevant to my point. What's relevant to my point is that different people have different personalities. For Sami, cheating should be a deal breaker whether it's EJ, Rafe, Lucas, Brandon, Austin whoever. That's not true of the other people you mentioned. Meanwhile, I can buy Sami overlooking murder, but if Marlena had hidden Belle from John, I wouldn't have expected John to forgive that. He'd been forced away from kids before, and I think it would have been in character for him to have a hard time getting past that. It's not a double standard. It's two different people having different personalities and experiences that SHOULD shape how the react to things.

Forgiveness isn't a personal choice on television. That's only a real life thing.

My personal preferences have to do with characters, not couples.
I agree with this, although once they made Sami a cheater herself, they kinda muddied the waters about how she should respond.
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King
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I just want Dee and Drake on-screen again. I don't care if it is watching them play checkers.

I really can't stand Guy Wilson or Greg Vaughn as Will and Eric. Daniel and Jennifer -- give me a break!! Paige sucks and is boring. Brady and Theresa is a joke and a half.

I just want something on-screen I care about.
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Yoryla
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Pookie
May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers.
Awww :wub2: :wub2: :wub2:
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kay
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Kay

Kaha
May 24 2014, 12:28 AM
PALMommy
May 24 2014, 12:13 AM
Kaha
May 23 2014, 08:30 PM
WilSonJAb33
May 23 2014, 08:18 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepthat
It could be T. Has anyone seen T lately? He hated Nick, maybe he killed him. :whistle:
I've wondered about T as well, but I'm still holding out that one of the shots (I think there were two shooters) is Caroline and she doesn't remember or know she did it.
That would be thousand times more interesting than Gabi shooting Nick. Anyone but Gabi would be interesting.

I want Gabi to go to Argentina to pursue her dreams. I don't want her to go to jail when Kate, Victor and Stefano are around unscathed.
Maybe that is part of a plea deal - that she leaves the country. No contact with her family.
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MissFancyFace
Some gals have all the luck!

Yoryla
May 24 2014, 05:50 PM
Pookie
May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers.
Awww :wub2: :wub2: :wub2:
I would :wub: that! :rockon:
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phloe3


There is someone at SOC who claims Sami has known about EJ and Abby and tells EJ at the wedding in July
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LuvingLumi
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Come on Ron, We are counting on YOU !!

phloe3
May 25 2014, 09:16 PM
There is someone at SOC who claims Sami has known about EJ and Abby and tells EJ at the wedding in July
That same person was saying the wedding was in June the week before last. It's not hard after this past week to come up with semi plausible specs of what might happen. But that person has no sources
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Kaha
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If Sami knows about EJ and Abby's hookups then she found out during the pregnancy scare. It's hard not to put the clues together.

It's still hard for me to believe that Sami will be able to contain herself. She's very impulsive and she acts on emotions.
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phloe3


good point LuvingLumi and Kaha
Edited by phloe3, May 25 2014, 10:55 PM.
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marie1969


nananana7
May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
.
Not Amused
May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:

S loves EJ
May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;

1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one

2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.

3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.

Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.

marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.

I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard.
I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.

I think this is about the characters being true to who they are,
*AND*
the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.

Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).

Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.)
But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.

WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.

Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.

I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.

To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.

The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.

Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).

Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).

For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.

The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc.
But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.

Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.

LOL, everyone has their own idea of what the true Sami should be. Your version of the true Sami is not any more valid than mine, specially since she has been my favorite for the last 2 decades. I consider myself a Sami Brady expert LOL.

I will agree on one thing though. Sami is insecure and used to have low-self esteem. I don't think she is as insecure as she used to be nor do I think she still has low self esteem. IMO, being loved unconditionally by Ej has made Sami more secure and has help her overcome her self esteem issues.

I also think it is inaccurate to state that Sami self esteem issues relate to Ej because Sami had those issues since she was a teenager before she even met Ej. She raped Austin because of her issues and was willing to scheme to get him even though she knew he did not want her. that is a sign of low self-esteem among other issues IMO. A woman who loves and respects herself does not do that. Cough....Abigail/Nicole....cough.

When she was in love with Brandon, she took him back after he slept with Lexie and then got so insecure that she had to scheme to keep him.

Then she got with Lucas who cheated on her with some random chick. I can not recall if she was some stripper from Tony's club. My memory is fuzzy on the details. she took him back the same night even though she knew where he had been. :embarrassed: Then there is the whole begging, groveling and more begging that she had to do in order to keep Lucas. Not to mention that she took Lucas back after he chose her sister over her and Lucas only took her back because Carrie cheated on him and dump him for Austin. If that is not a sign of low self esteem, I don't know what is.

I don't know if you have been paying attention over the years, but when sami's men are interested in another woman, she does not dump them like a normal person would. she gets desperate and start scheming to hold on to them. I don't know where you got the idea that she would never forgive someone who cheated. she forgave lucas, Brandon, and Rafe. All those men betrayed her in one way or another. I can not remember a single time Sami walked away from a man because of another woman. She would go after the woman, but would fight to hold on to her man precisely because of her fear of abandonment and rejection issues.

I could go on but the point is there is a pattern here. Sami has always had those issues and that has nothing to do with her being with Ej. So when someone says she has no self respect because she forgave Ej, I have to wonder if they know Sami's history.

As for saying Sami should not forgive Ej, well she forgave Lucas for letting her go on death row for a crime he committed. she forgave Rafe for pretending to get Nicole pregnant and for falling in love with her sister Carrie. So Sami does have a history of forgiving the men who hurt her when it suits her. If it was in character for her to forgive them, why not Ej specially since Sami is no victim here. She gave as good as she got.



Ej is the only man who has fought for her and has loved her unconditionally (the good, the bad and everything in between) for eight years. Sami has never had to beg, grovel, apologize, or scheme to get him. She has always had his heart and soul no matter what. She is the most confident, secure and loved when she is with him because she knows he worships the very ground she walks on.


nananana7
May 24 2014, 02:27 PM
.
Not Amused
May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:

S loves EJ
May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;

1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one

2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.

3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.

Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.

marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.

nananana7
May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard.
I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.

I think this is about the characters being true to who they are,
*AND*
the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.

Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).

Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.)
But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.

WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.

Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.

I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.

To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.

The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.

Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).

Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).

For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.

The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc.
But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.

Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.


S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 01:41 PM
I don't think it made sense that Sami forgave EJ for the rape or Rafe2, but to me they shouldn't have been written in the first place. Since the actors has such amazing chemistry therefore I can overlooked it even if their bad history bothers me to some extent. I'm not sure if I agree that the stealing John's kidney would be unforgivable for Sami since I'm not sure if she cares about John or not.

I also don't think cheating would be harder for Sami to forgive than rape, and even if cheating would have been a dealbreaker before I don't think it should anymore since she is a cheater herself now, and not just with the griefsex she cheated on EJ in 2010 by making out with Rafe and she cheated on Lucas when she ran off with EJ in 2012 and made out with him in the safehouse, so it would make her a hypocrite if she doesn't forgive EJ.

This all comes down to inconsistency in the writing of Sami's character.

When Sami was a teen, Sami raped Austin and she stole her baby sister Belle and tried to sell Belle on the black market.
I don't excuse these crimes. But I understand them as the workings of a deranged teenager. I think the show dropped the ball by never getting her treatment for that.

>>> EDITING later to say: I was wrong -- what I should've said was ...
Sami *did* get psych treatment in her teens ...
*but*
I think that the show dropped the ball by not having her get periodic psych check-ups at least until she was an adult. My sense was that Sami tended to lead everyone to believe she was "fine" ... and she really wasn't fine. Really Marlena ... or an objective trustworthy someone should've been informally unofficially observing Sami's public persona to see if there were red flags. And Marlena should've strongly encouraged Sami to get regular psych check-ups (even if she couldn't force this to happen when Sami became an adult.)
>>> End edit.

Sami was never a "good girl".
I saw Sami as mentally ill, but not evil.

But i saw EJ as evil and sadistic because his crimes were done as an adult.

My preference was and is Sami to be with Lucas, but to be fair in this debate, I'll step aside from that and say this:

If the writers intended from the beginning for Sami to have a passionate relationship with EJ,
then the writers should *NEVER* have written EJ as having ever done all those horrible things.
The writers should've had Sami with EJ Wells the racecar driver who was a dangerous womanizer but never evil.

Or ...

the writers should've left EJ as evil ,,,, and
then separately written Sami have a passionate relationship with someone else.

Sami was never a good girl, but she was never evil, and it made no sense for her forgive EJ's evil deeds.

And it *NEVER* made sense for Sami to be a cheater. That was bad writing, too.

To me, it's the *writers* who have conflicting standards for Sami's character.

Oh and ... Sami did *eventually* grow to love and accept John and Marlena.
Both Sami and Brady loved John and Marlena.
The stupid writers messed that up by changing it into continued resentment.


PALMommy
May 24 2014, 02:36 PM
Will&Sonny
May 24 2014, 07:25 AM
marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I am not sure what you mean by that. but to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO. That was my point.
In order for it to be a double standard, you would have to know that the person you were responding to (Not Amused) held those other characters you mentioned to a different set of standards than they held Sami to -- in other words, that they believed that Sami wouldn't have any self-respect if she forgave E.J. for cheating on her, but didn't believe the same thing about other characters who have forgiven significant others for cheating. You don't have any evidence of that based on the one line of text that the person you were responding to posted, so you can't really call it a double standard.

As lysie pointed out, Sami doesn't have to forgive E.J. for cheating on her just because other characters have forgiven their own significant others for doing the same thing. And even if she did forgive him, I still think it would be fair for some viewers to be more disappointed about that, given the entirety of E.J. and Sami's relationship, than they were when other characters forgave infidelity. The phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" springs to mind. Where cheating was one offense in an otherwise practically offense-free and loving relationship for the other couples you mentioned, it is the latest offense in a long history of offenses in Sami and E.J.'s relationship, and that is a valid point, IMO.
Yes! That was my point exactly. Comparing EJami to Bope/Jarlena/Shawn & Caroline is like comparing apples to oranges. And even if you pull and root for EJami that does not change their history, nor does it change another couple's history like Bope. Sami is actually the best definition of "double standard" in this situation; she cheats on Rafe, expects him to forgive her in a MARRIAGE yet she might not forgive EJ for cheating on her in an ENGAGEMENT relationship. Now that would be a great example of a double standard. And given all the other crap she's forgiven <cough!> him for, not only a double standard but quite laughable to boot.

And self respect? Uh, she lost that a long time ago in my opinion. Which is why I'm hoping for a story redemption arc where she seeks revenge on Abby and EJ before her exit.

first off, we don't know how Sami is going to react to ejabby hookup. so you are just assuming that she might not forgive Ej. Perhaps she will forgive him precisely because of griefsex.

Going back to your original post, I could have misunderstood your point, It sounded to me that you were criticizing Sami for potentially forgiving Ej. Yet in this post, you are saying she has double standard because she MIGHT not forgive Ej for cheating when she expected Rafe to forgive her. I am confused where you stand about this issue because it sounds to me she has no self respect if she forgives, but she has double standard if she does not forgive. LOL, it is a no win situation for her.

As far as comparing Bope and shawn/Caroline, I was under the impression we were discussing the cheating which is the current storyline relating to this thread. To me cheating is cheating, although circumstances may be a factor, it really does not matter who does the cheating and who is being cheating on. It is still an act of betrayal. Besides, if you feel Sami has no respect anyway, what difference does it make if she forgives ej or not at this point?

For the record, I don't want to change ejami's history. I love them just fine in spite their history. Their history is a reminder how much they had to overcome to be together and how hard their fans had to fight for them.
Edited by marie1969, May 26 2014, 12:30 AM.
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Partnersincrime
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marie1969
May 26 2014, 12:18 AM
nananana7
May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
.
Not Amused
May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:

S loves EJ
May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;

1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one

2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.

3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.

Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.

marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.

I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard.
I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.

I think this is about the characters being true to who they are,
*AND*
the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.

Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).

Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.)
But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.

WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.

Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.

I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.

To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.

The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.

Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).

Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).

For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.

The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc.
But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.

Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.

LOL, everyone has their own idea of what the true Sami should be. Your version of the true Sami is not any more valid than mine, specially since she has been my favorite for the last 2 decades. I consider myself a Sami Brady expert LOL.

I will agree on one thing though. Sami is insecure and used to have low-self esteem. I don't think she is as insecure as she used to be nor do I think she still has low self esteem. IMO, being loved unconditionally by Ej has made Sami more secure and has help her overcome her self esteem issues.

I also think it is inaccurate to state that Sami self esteem issues relate to Ej because Sami had those issues since she was a teenager before she even met Ej. She raped Austin because of her issues and was willing to scheme to get him even though she knew he did not want her. that is a sign of low self-esteem among other issues IMO. A woman who loves and respects herself does not do that. Cough....Abigail/Nicole....cough.

When she was in love with Brandon, she took him back after he slept with Lexie and then got so insecure that she had to scheme to keep him.

Then she got with Lucas who cheated on her with some random chick. I can not recall if she was some stripper from Tony's club. My memory is fuzzy on the details. she took him back the same night even though she knew where he had been. :embarrassed: Then there is the whole begging, groveling and more begging that she had to do in order to keep Lucas. Not to mention that she took Lucas back after he chose her sister over her and Lucas only took her back because Carrie cheated on him and dump him for Austin. If that is not a sign of low self esteem, I don't know what is.

I don't know if you have been paying attention over the years, but when sami's men are interested in another woman, she does not dump them like a normal person would. she gets desperate and start scheming to hold on to them. I don't know where you got the idea that she would never forgive someone who cheated. she forgave lucas, Brandon, and Rafe. All those men betrayed her in one way or another. I can not remember a single time Sami walked away from a man because of another woman. She would go after the woman, but would fight to hold on to her man precisely because of her fear of abandonment and rejection issues.

I could go on but the point is there is a pattern here. Sami has always had those issues and that has nothing to do with her being with Ej. So when someone says she has no self respect because she forgave Ej, I have to wonder if they know Sami's history.

As for saying Sami should not forgive Ej, well she forgave Lucas for letting her go on death row for a crime he committed. she forgave Rafe for pretending to get Nicole pregnant and for falling in love with her sister Carrie. So Sami does have a history of forgiving the men who hurt her when it suits her. If it was in character for her to forgive them, why not Ej specially since Sami is no victim here. She gave as good as she got.



Ej is the only man who has fought for her and has loved her unconditionally (the good, the bad and everything in between) for eight years. Sami has never had to beg, grovel, apologize, or scheme to get him. She has always had his heart and soul no matter what. She is the most confident, secure and loved when she is with him because she knows he worships the very ground she walks on.


nananana7
May 24 2014, 02:27 PM
.
Not Amused
May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:

S loves EJ
May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;

1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one

2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.

3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.

Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.

marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
lysie
May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.

nananana7
May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard.
I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.

I think this is about the characters being true to who they are,
*AND*
the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.

Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).

Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.)
But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.

WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.

Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.

I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.

To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.

The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.

Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).

Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).

For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.

The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc.
But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.

Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.


S loves EJ
May 24 2014, 01:41 PM
I don't think it made sense that Sami forgave EJ for the rape or Rafe2, but to me they shouldn't have been written in the first place. Since the actors has such amazing chemistry therefore I can overlooked it even if their bad history bothers me to some extent. I'm not sure if I agree that the stealing John's kidney would be unforgivable for Sami since I'm not sure if she cares about John or not.

I also don't think cheating would be harder for Sami to forgive than rape, and even if cheating would have been a dealbreaker before I don't think it should anymore since she is a cheater herself now, and not just with the griefsex she cheated on EJ in 2010 by making out with Rafe and she cheated on Lucas when she ran off with EJ in 2012 and made out with him in the safehouse, so it would make her a hypocrite if she doesn't forgive EJ.

This all comes down to inconsistency in the writing of Sami's character.

When Sami was a teen, Sami raped Austin and she stole her baby sister Belle and tried to sell Belle on the black market.
I don't excuse these crimes. But I understand them as the workings of a deranged teenager. I think the show dropped the ball by never getting her treatment for that.

>>> EDITING later to say: I was wrong -- what I should've said was ...
Sami *did* get psych treatment in her teens ...
*but*
I think that the show dropped the ball by not having her get periodic psych check-ups at least until she was an adult. My sense was that Sami tended to lead everyone to believe she was "fine" ... and she really wasn't fine. Really Marlena ... or an objective trustworthy someone should've been informally unofficially observing Sami's public persona to see if there were red flags. And Marlena should've strongly encouraged Sami to get regular psych check-ups (even if she couldn't force this to happen when Sami became an adult.)
>>> End edit.

Sami was never a "good girl".
I saw Sami as mentally ill, but not evil.

But i saw EJ as evil and sadistic because his crimes were done as an adult.

My preference was and is Sami to be with Lucas, but to be fair in this debate, I'll step aside from that and say this:

If the writers intended from the beginning for Sami to have a passionate relationship with EJ,
then the writers should *NEVER* have written EJ as having ever done all those horrible things.
The writers should've had Sami with EJ Wells the racecar driver who was a dangerous womanizer but never evil.

Or ...

the writers should've left EJ as evil ,,,, and
then separately written Sami have a passionate relationship with someone else.

Sami was never a good girl, but she was never evil, and it made no sense for her forgive EJ's evil deeds.

And it *NEVER* made sense for Sami to be a cheater. That was bad writing, too.

To me, it's the *writers* who have conflicting standards for Sami's character.

Oh and ... Sami did *eventually* grow to love and accept John and Marlena.
Both Sami and Brady loved John and Marlena.
The stupid writers messed that up by changing it into continued resentment.


PALMommy
May 24 2014, 02:36 PM
Will&Sonny
May 24 2014, 07:25 AM
marie1969
May 24 2014, 06:47 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
In order for it to be a double standard, you would have to know that the person you were responding to (Not Amused) held those other characters you mentioned to a different set of standards than they held Sami to -- in other words, that they believed that Sami wouldn't have any self-respect if she forgave E.J. for cheating on her, but didn't believe the same thing about other characters who have forgiven significant others for cheating. You don't have any evidence of that based on the one line of text that the person you were responding to posted, so you can't really call it a double standard.

As lysie pointed out, Sami doesn't have to forgive E.J. for cheating on her just because other characters have forgiven their own significant others for doing the same thing. And even if she did forgive him, I still think it would be fair for some viewers to be more disappointed about that, given the entirety of E.J. and Sami's relationship, than they were when other characters forgave infidelity. The phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" springs to mind. Where cheating was one offense in an otherwise practically offense-free and loving relationship for the other couples you mentioned, it is the latest offense in a long history of offenses in Sami and E.J.'s relationship, and that is a valid point, IMO.
Yes! That was my point exactly. Comparing EJami to Bope/Jarlena/Shawn & Caroline is like comparing apples to oranges. And even if you pull and root for EJami that does not change their history, nor does it change another couple's history like Bope. Sami is actually the best definition of "double standard" in this situation; she cheats on Rafe, expects him to forgive her in a MARRIAGE yet she might not forgive EJ for cheating on her in an ENGAGEMENT relationship. Now that would be a great example of a double standard. And given all the other crap she's forgiven <cough!> him for, not only a double standard but quite laughable to boot.

And self respect? Uh, she lost that a long time ago in my opinion. Which is why I'm hoping for a story redemption arc where she seeks revenge on Abby and EJ before her exit.

first off, we don't know how Sami is going to react to ejabby hookup. so you are just assuming that she might not forgive Ej. Perhaps she will forgive him precisely because of griefsex.

Going back to your original post, I could have misunderstood your point, It sounded to me that you were criticizing Sami for potentially forgiving Ej. Yet in this post, you are saying she has double standard because she MIGHT not forgive Ej for cheating when she expected Rafe to forgive her. I am confused where you stand about this issue because it sounds to me she has no self respect if she forgives, but she has double standard if she does not forgive. LOL, it is a no win situation for her.

As far as comparing Bope and shawn/Caroline, I was under the impression we were discussing the cheating which is the current storyline relating to this thread. To me cheating is cheating, although circumstances may be a factor, it really does not matter who does the cheating and who is being cheating on. It is still an act of betrayal. Besides, if you feel Sami has no respect anyway, what difference does it make if she forgives ej or not at this point?

For the record, I don't want to change ejami's history. I love them just fine in spite their history. Their history is a reminder how much they had to overcome to be together and how hard their fans had to fight for them.
Lucas never cheat on any woman he was in relationship that include Sami and lucas never chose Carrie over Sami since he met Sami she wanted Austin and when Carrie and lucas were in relationship last time It was after Lucas was hurt by the Sami and it seem to him Sami going after Austin again Carrie was pretty much lucas rebound he did not chose her over Sami.
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marie1969


Kaha
May 25 2014, 09:52 PM
If Sami knows about EJ and Abby's hookups then she found out during the pregnancy scare. It's hard not to put the clues together.

It's still hard for me to believe that Sami will be able to contain herself. She's very impulsive and she acts on emotions.
I also think Sami knows. but I am leaning toward her finding out sometimes this week instead of during the pregnancy scare. I might buy that she has known for that long except I don't think she would have slept with Ej knowing he had been with Abigail. I don't think she would be so lovey dovey with him either. She has been very affectionate and passionate toward him since she took him back. For her to be that way, she would have to forgive him. I don't think she is there yet.

As for Sami containing herself, I think she can do that. she is a schemer. She has the ability to carry out a scheme without showing her hand until she is good and ready.

I must say I like the idea of her knowing and plotting her revenge. That is a very Sami thing to do.
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jendays
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rfsexton
May 23 2014, 05:44 PM
Quote:
 
Wedding shocker: A surprise couple gets married.


It would be awesome if the surprise couple is Lucas and Sami.
I wish but doubtful because TBTP wouldn't want that.... ^o)
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jendays
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marie1969
May 26 2014, 12:59 AM
Kaha
May 25 2014, 09:52 PM
If Sami knows about EJ and Abby's hookups then she found out during the pregnancy scare. It's hard not to put the clues together.

It's still hard for me to believe that Sami will be able to contain herself. She's very impulsive and she acts on emotions.
I also think Sami knows. but I am leaning toward her finding out sometimes this week instead of during the pregnancy scare. I might buy that she has known for that long except I don't think she would have slept with Ej knowing he had been with Abigail. I don't think she would be so lovey dovey with him either. She has been very affectionate and passionate toward him since she took him back. For her to be that way, she would have to forgive him. I don't think she is there yet.

As for Sami containing herself, I think she can do that. she is a schemer. She has the ability to carry out a scheme without showing her hand until she is good and ready.

I must say I like the idea of her knowing and plotting her revenge. That is a very Sami thing to do.
I agree Sami is a schemer and she could pull off the revenge angle. However, I also agree that she would be holding off on sex with EJ. I suspect soon, we will be seeing her say that they can't have sex until after the wedding. I guess we will see soon enough... ^_^
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jaylee


phloe3
May 25 2014, 09:16 PM
There is someone at SOC who claims Sami has known about EJ and Abby and tells EJ at the wedding in July
I watched the Dec. 9th Sami , she told Percy the plan about EJ and Abby that day I think it has been a setup from the start. I think Sami started being protective of Abby because of Lucas and Will. I believe Percy is Bo and Sami has been setting up EJ. If any of this is true this storyline is brilliant.
Edited by jaylee, May 26 2014, 04:46 AM.
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nananana7
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marie1969
May 26 2014, 12:18 AM
As for saying Sami should not forgive Ej, well she forgave Lucas for letting her go on death row for a crime he committed. she forgave Rafe for pretending to get Nicole pregnant and for falling in love with her sister Carrie. So Sami does have a history of forgiving the men who hurt her when it suits her. If it was in character for her to forgive them, why not Ej specially since Sami is no victim here. She gave as good as she got.
Partnersincrime
May 26 2014, 12:42 AM
Lucas never cheat on any woman he was in relationship
that include Sami

and lucas never chose Carrie over Sami since he met Sami

she wanted Austin
and when Carrie and lucas were in relationship last time It was after Lucas was hurt by the Sami and it seem to him Sami going after Austin again

Carrie was pretty much lucas rebound he did not chose her over Sami.

Correct.
Lucas has never cheated on Sami.
Lucas has never cheated on *any* woman.

Lucas starts with a new woman only *after* the prior relationship was ended.

Lucas "settled" for Carrie after Sami rejected him.
But Lucas' *heart* has always chosen Sami first.
Edited by nananana7, May 26 2014, 07:36 AM.
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nananana7
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marie1969
May 26 2014, 12:18 AM
LOL, everyone has their own idea of what the true Sami should be. Your version of the true Sami is not any more valid than mine
<snip>
Ej is the only man who has fought for her and has loved her unconditionally (the good, the bad and everything in between) for eight years. Sami has never had to beg, grovel, apologize, or scheme to get him. She has always had his heart and soul no matter what. She is the most confident, secure and loved when she is with him because she knows he worships the very ground she walks on

My view is very different.

My view is that EJ is obsessed with Sami and wants to own her at all costs. EJ seems to think that wanting someone equals loving them, but it actually isn't. He is in love with the idea of possessing Sami. He doesn't actually LOVE her. She's just a concept to him, a challenge. He doesn't see her as a human being. He also wants to have the concept of being a father and he wants to own his children, and he thinks that's loving his children, but it isn't. That's because people are objects to EJ. That is what I truly believe.

My view:
EJ doesn't "worship" Sami as an idealized woman he loves.
My view is that Sami is just an icon to EJ, a symbol of the power/prestige/accomplishment he feels when he is in ownership of her.

My view is that Sami is so damaged/deranged that she confuses his obsessive attention with love. Of course she hasn't had to scheme to get him -- he's her personal stalker.
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Rosebud
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Kaha
May 25 2014, 09:52 PM
If Sami knows about EJ and Abby's hookups then she found out during the pregnancy scare. It's hard not to put the clues together.

It's still hard for me to believe that Sami will be able to contain herself. She's very impulsive and she acts on emotions.
That doesn't matter. It's all about plot.
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Yoryla
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I just have to chime in to say that I don't see Sami as being any less insecure now than she was back then. I mean, now, she perhaps has certain things more, as in children, a fiancé and she is almost a DiMera now, but that's all just more mask to cover up the insecurities.
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