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SOD: Summer Preview Summary
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Topic Started: May 23 2014, 01:28 AM (15,222 Views)
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blueskies
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May 24 2014, 11:11 AM
Post #141
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- Pookie
- May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers. lol, well if she did, at least it would force them to address the Bo situation!
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Will&Sonny
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May 24 2014, 11:15 AM
Post #142
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- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 09:26 AM
- Will&Sonny
- May 24 2014, 08:20 AM
- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 07:50 AM
- Will&Sonny
- May 24 2014, 07:25 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deepNot Amused) held those other characters you mentioned to a different set of standards than they held Sami to -- in other words, that they believed that Sami wouldn't have any self-respect if she forgave E.J. for cheating on her, but didn't believe the same thing about other characters who have forgiven significant others for cheating. You don't have any evidence of that based on the one line of text that the person you were responding to posted, so you can't really call it a double standard.
As lysie pointed out, Sami doesn't have to forgive E.J. for cheating on her just because other characters have forgiven their own significant others for doing the same thing. And even if she did forgive him, I still think it would be fair for some viewers to be more disappointed about that, given the entirety of E.J. and Sami's relationship, than they were when other characters forgave infidelity. The phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" springs to mind. Where cheating was one offense in an otherwise practically offense-free and loving relationship for the other couples you mentioned, it is the latest offense in a long history of offenses in Sami and E.J.'s relationship, and that is a valid point, IMO.
[N]ot sure where all the confusion is coming from, but I never said that Sami HAD to forgive Ej.
No one has said that you did. However, as lysie pointed out and I expanded on, what you called a double standard isn't really an example of a double standard. If it is anything, it is an example of one character having a different set of standards than another character, not an example of one person holding one character to a different set of standards than another character. And I was again expanding on lysie's point when I agreed that Sami doesn't have to forgive E.J. for cheating on her just because other characters have forgiven their own significant others for doing the same thing, since she is her own person and should have her own set of standards that she believes in. The link to your post is not that you claimed otherwise but that you called that a double standard when it would actually just be an example of one character having a different set of standards than another character.
I feel like we are going in circles and we are arguing semantics to distract from my original point. [...] I do feel however you are focusing on Lysie's point more than the original post I was replying to. That's precisely what I was doing, and I kind of pointed that out in my previous post, where I specifically mentioned twice that I was expanding on points that lysie had made. But in my original post, I also commented on the original post you had replied to -- see the part about the straw that broke the camel's back. I wasn't distracting from your original point, I was simply disagreeing with it.
To reiterate and be perfectly clear, even if we remove the "double standard" part of your original reply to Not Amused from the equation entirely, I still disagree with your comparison of Sami to those other characters you mentioned, because those other characters have not also forgiven their respective significant others for all of the other things that Sami has already forgiven E.J. for doing to her, so it doesn't feel like a completely fair comparison to me. Not Amused said that forgiving E.J. for cheating would be an indicator that Sami has no self-respect left (an important part of Not Amused's post, IMO, as self-respect is something that can be chipped away at over time -- again, this goes back to my comment about the straw that broke the camel's back -- but I digress), and I think it's fair for viewers to feel that way if they want to. The characters you mentioned might have lost some self-respect when they forgave infidelity, depending on one's perspective, but one could also think that Sami lost some self-respect when she forgave rape, and she lost some more self-respect when she forgave the cruel faking of her child's death, and she lost some more self-respect when she forgave rape by proxy, and she lost some more self-respect when she forgave being cruelly forced to make her son believe that she didn't love him, and she is down to her last shred of self-respect at this point, and if she forgives infidelity, she will have no self-respect left. That's a fair opinion for one to have, IMO. Based on your reply to Not Amused, as well as subsequent posts on the matter, it seems like you disagree, and that's fine, too, of course.
In any case, yes, if you want to put E.J. and Sami's relationship in a vacuum where only the infidelity is allowed to be discussed, then you are correct in saying that it's a double standard for a person to claim that forgiving infidelity would mean a loss of self-respect for her while maintaining that other characters did not suffer the same loss when they forgave infidelity, but there is still no evidence in this thread that Not Amused (or anyone else) feels that way about Sami but not about other characters.
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Mean, Mean, Mean!
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May 24 2014, 11:35 AM
Post #143
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Is it bad I want Kristen to kidnap Brady and keep him in the secret room? :o
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nananana7
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May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
Post #144
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.- Not Amused
- May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:
- S loves EJ
- May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;
1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one
2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.
3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.
Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.
- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
- lysie
- May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard. I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.
I think this is about the characters being true to who they are, *AND* the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.
Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).
Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.) But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.
WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.
Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.
I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.
To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.
The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.
Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).
Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).
For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.
The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc. But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.
Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.
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thepadange
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May 24 2014, 12:39 PM
Post #145
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- blueskies
- May 24 2014, 11:11 AM
- Pookie
- May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers.
lol, well if she did, at least it would force them to address the Bo situation! Well, in Kriara case I wouldn't be sure who kidnapped whom. Ciara was the one stalking Kristen, not vice versa ;) .
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Pookie
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May 24 2014, 12:46 PM
Post #146
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- blueskies
- May 24 2014, 11:11 AM
- Pookie
- May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers.
lol, well if she did, at least it would force them to address the Bo situation! This would never happen because they no longer have the budget fit it, but I would enjoy a good ISA storyline. I wasn't around for those days but they sound like fun.
What if the children of past and present ISA agents where kidnapped by some international villain. In order to flush out Bo Brady and Shane Donovan and Jack Deveraux, Kidnap JJ, Theresa and Ciara. Then they would be forced to work together and save themselves. Then they can be reunited with their fathers.
I'm convinced Ciara could be the next HIT GIRL:
http://youtu.be/2JfjO1PZxXc
Edited by Pookie, May 24 2014, 12:51 PM.
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Rosebud
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May 24 2014, 12:54 PM
Post #147
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- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 07:16 AM
- six
- May 23 2014, 06:03 PM
- Kaha
- May 23 2014, 05:12 PM
I am going to be slammed for this but Marlena and Roman make a lot of sense. They were married, they have a lot to bind them and they're both unattached. Why not?
It's not like Marlena doesn't have a legitimate reason to be mad at John. He treated her like crap, then hightailed to Europe. Didn't contact her and even acknowledge her existence. Then came back to Salem without letting her know. She had to find out the Salem way, running into him. Why should she give him the time of the day?
I think Roman and Marlena would make sense as a couple, on paper. The spoiler about her sudden jealousy doesn't make sense, and they wouldn't make sense on screen though, because Roman doesn't click with the rest of the show.
I think Roman and Marlena could be interesting if written well. I have never seen them really together and in love unless you count their brief reunion when the real Roman came back to Salem. I just feel that Jarlena is stale and has run its course. It would be refreshing to see Marlena and Roman getting closer. Maybe Kristen and John can hook up. That would shake things up a bit instead of the same old tired couple we had to watch for decades. There are two many "oh no you di'n't's" in this post to address, but what reunion are you talking about? There was no reunion when he came back in '97. Other than yea, he was back.
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S loves EJ
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May 24 2014, 01:41 PM
Post #148
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- nananana7
- May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
. - Not Amused
- May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:
- S loves EJ
- May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;
1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one
2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.
3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.
Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.
- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
- lysie
- May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard. I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard. I think this is about the characters being true to who they are, *AND* the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are. Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon). Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.) But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important. WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character. Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge. I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him. To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc. The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson. Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life). Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense). For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center. The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc. But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge. Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.
I donīt think it made sense that Sami forgave EJ for the rape or Rafe2, but to me they shouldnīt have been written in the first place since the actors has such amazing chemistry therefore I can overlooked it even if their bad history bothers me to some extent. Iīm not sure if I agree that the stealing Johnīs kidney would be unforgivable for Sami since Iīm not sure if she cares about John or not.
I also donīt think cheating would be harder for Sami to forgive than rape, and even if cheating would have been a dealbreaker before I donīt think it should anymore since she is a cheater herself now, and not just with the griefsex she cheated on EJ in 2010 by making out with Rafe and she cheated on Lucas when she ran off with EJ in 2012 and made out with him in the safehouse, so it would make her a hypocrite if she doesnīt forgive EJ.
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phloe3
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May 24 2014, 02:18 PM
Post #149
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here's more spoilers from soaps.com
http://soaps.sheknows.com/daysofourlives/spoilers/
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nananana7
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May 24 2014, 02:27 PM
Post #150
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- Not Amused
- May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:
- S loves EJ
- May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;
1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one
2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.
3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.
Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.
- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
- lysie
- May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
- nananana7
- May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard. I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.
I think this is about the characters being true to who they are, *AND* the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.
Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).
Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.) But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.
WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.
Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.
I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.
To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.
The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.
Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).
Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).
For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.
The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc. But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.
Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 01:41 PM
I don't think it made sense that Sami forgave EJ for the rape or Rafe2, but to me they shouldn't have been written in the first place. Since the actors has such amazing chemistry therefore I can overlooked it even if their bad history bothers me to some extent. I'm not sure if I agree that the stealing John's kidney would be unforgivable for Sami since I'm not sure if she cares about John or not.
I also don't think cheating would be harder for Sami to forgive than rape, and even if cheating would have been a dealbreaker before I don't think it should anymore since she is a cheater herself now, and not just with the griefsex she cheated on EJ in 2010 by making out with Rafe and she cheated on Lucas when she ran off with EJ in 2012 and made out with him in the safehouse, so it would make her a hypocrite if she doesn't forgive EJ.
This all comes down to inconsistency in the writing of Sami's character.
When Sami was a teen, Sami raped Austin and she stole her baby sister Belle and tried to sell Belle on the black market. I don't excuse these crimes. But I understand them as the workings of a deranged teenager. I think the show dropped the ball by never getting her treatment for that.
>>> EDITING later to say: I was wrong -- what I should've said was ... Sami *did* get psych treatment in her teens ... *but* I think that the show dropped the ball by not having her get periodic psych check-ups at least until she was an adult. My sense was that Sami tended to lead everyone to believe she was "fine" ... and she really wasn't fine. Really Marlena ... or an objective trustworthy someone should've been informally unofficially observing Sami's public persona to see if there were red flags. And Marlena should've strongly encouraged Sami to get regular psych check-ups (even if she couldn't force this to happen when Sami became an adult.) >>> End edit.
Sami was never a "good girl". I saw Sami as mentally ill, but not evil.
But i saw EJ as evil and sadistic because his crimes were done as an adult.
My preference was and is Sami to be with Lucas, but to be fair in this debate, I'll step aside from that and say this:
If the writers intended from the beginning for Sami to have a passionate relationship with EJ, then the writers should *NEVER* have written EJ as having ever done all those horrible things. The writers should've had Sami with EJ Wells the racecar driver who was a dangerous womanizer but never evil.
Or ...
the writers should've left EJ as evil ,,,, and then separately written Sami have a passionate relationship with someone else.
Sami was never a good girl, but she was never evil, and it made no sense for her forgive EJ's evil deeds.
And it *NEVER* made sense for Sami to be a cheater. That was bad writing, too.
To me, it's the *writers* who have conflicting standards for Sami's character.
Oh and ... Sami did *eventually* grow to love and accept John and Marlena. Both Sami and Brady loved John and Marlena. The stupid writers messed that up by changing it into continued resentment.
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S loves EJ
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May 24 2014, 02:31 PM
Post #151
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- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 07:37 AM
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- May 23 2014, 07:57 PM
- concerned
- May 23 2014, 07:50 PM
- S loves EJ
- May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
EJ had the "arrangement" clause get out with Taylor. That the relationship was supposed to be a mutually satisfying arrangement where he got "symmetry" plus a couple of other side benefits and she got access to his children.
I really hated Nicole and EJ's relationship at that time. EJ was a deranged asshole and Nicole was his little lackey. The relationship was just icky and abusive. I didn't get Nicole's motivation taking the kids from their mother and traumatizing them. I got EJ's motivations. He's a screwed up man who lashes out whenever something doesn't go his way. Besides, he was angry about Sami shooting him and then running off to marry Rafe. But Nicole's motivation was kinda weird to me. It was surprising that Kate was the sane person with common sense advise in that whole affair.
It was not weird to me LOL. Nicole has always been about herself. She does not care about anybody else IMO. She was obsessed with Sydney and wanted an instant family (Sami's family because Sami is her true obsession) and she did not care about the casualties. I am fine with Nicole being that way because it is in character. I have a love/hate relationship with her , but at least I find her interesting compared to most characters on the show. That is why I find it odd that people are upset by what she is doing now. It is in character and it is what I expect from her. I am not the least surprised that she would stab Eric in the back so she can have what she wants. She has done it in every relationship she has been including when she was with Ej. I was more annoyed with her when she was pretending to be morally superior toward Kristen and crucifying her when they are quite similar in a lot of ways. She came off as a big hypocrite specially in light of what she is doing now. I like Ericole initially mainly because I like the idea of Nicole finding unconditional love, but I have come to realize that Ericole is not a good match. Dicole could work better because Daniel seems to know Nicole better. He knows what she is capable of and he still cares about her. I also do think they have a spark unlike Ericole. My favorite version of Nicole is the fun carefree snarky troublemaker with a martini in her hand and not giving a damn about anybody.
Iīm not really interested in Nicole but I think itīs strange that the writers had Nicole shredd the evidence even if itīs in her character since Ericole seems to be the couple they are going for so then why make them unrootable. I do think Nicole lying to EJ about the misscarriage and switching Babies was the wrong way to make Ejole rootable too, but it wasnīt as bad as Ericole since at least it made more sense why she did it being insecure about Sami, and I donīt think faking pregnancy and switching babies is bad storylines it was just bad for Ejole as a couple. Plus since EJ is a bad man himself he shouldnīt have a saint for a woman but since Eric pretty much is a saint he should have a good woman.
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thepadange
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May 24 2014, 02:35 PM
Post #152
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- phloe3
- May 24 2014, 02:18 PM
- Quote:
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Nicole blames Daniel and threatens to kill him.
:roflol:
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Eve Donovan returns with a big story and some surprising connections.
Ben and Jordan?
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PALMommy
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May 24 2014, 02:36 PM
Post #153
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Besides. A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
I am not sure what you mean by that. but to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO. That was my point.
In order for it to be a double standard, you would have to know that the person you were responding to ( Not Amused) held those other characters you mentioned to a different set of standards than they held Sami to -- in other words, that they believed that Sami wouldn't have any self-respect if she forgave E.J. for cheating on her, but didn't believe the same thing about other characters who have forgiven significant others for cheating. You don't have any evidence of that based on the one line of text that the person you were responding to posted, so you can't really call it a double standard. As lysie pointed out, Sami doesn't have to forgive E.J. for cheating on her just because other characters have forgiven their own significant others for doing the same thing. And even if she did forgive him, I still think it would be fair for some viewers to be more disappointed about that, given the entirety of E.J. and Sami's relationship, than they were when other characters forgave infidelity. The phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" springs to mind. Where cheating was one offense in an otherwise practically offense-free and loving relationship for the other couples you mentioned, it is the latest offense in a long history of offenses in Sami and E.J.'s relationship, and that is a valid point, IMO. Yes! That was my point exactly. Comparing EJami to Bope/Jarlena/Shawn & Caroline is like comparing apples to oranges. And even if you pull and root for EJami that does not change their history, nor does it change another couple's history like Bope. Sami is actually the best definition of "double standard" in this situation; she cheats on Rafe, expects him to forgive her in a MARRIAGE yet she might not forgive EJ for cheating on her in an ENGAGEMENT relationship. Now that would be a great example of a double standard. And given all the other crap she's forgiven <cough!> him for, not only a double standard but quite laughable to boot.
And self respect? Uh, she lost that a long time ago in my opinion. Which is why I'm hoping for a story redemption arc where she seeks revenge on Abby and EJ before her exit.
Edited by PALMommy, May 24 2014, 02:38 PM.
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CatherineEarnshaw
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May 24 2014, 02:39 PM
Post #154
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- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 07:16 AM
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- May 23 2014, 05:12 PM
I am going to be slammed for this but Marlena and Roman make a lot of sense. They were married, they have a lot to bind them and they're both unattached. Why not?
It's not like Marlena doesn't have a legitimate reason to be mad at John. He treated her like crap, then hightailed to Europe. Didn't contact her and even acknowledge her existence. Then came back to Salem without letting her know. She had to find out the Salem way, running into him. Why should she give him the time of the day?
I think Roman and Marlena would make sense as a couple, on paper. The spoiler about her sudden jealousy doesn't make sense, and they wouldn't make sense on screen though, because Roman doesn't click with the rest of the show.
I think Roman and Marlena could be interesting if written well. I have never seen them really together and in love unless you count their brief reunion when the real Roman came back to Salem. I just feel that Jarlena is stale and has run its course. It would be refreshing to see Marlena and Roman getting closer. Maybe Kristen and John can hook up. That would shake things up a bit instead of the same old tired couple we had to watch for decades. If John and Marlena are stale then Roman and Marlena are decayed.
The only thing good abt R/M is one didn't rape the other
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Supergirlx2
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May 24 2014, 03:05 PM
Post #155
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- Pookie
- May 24 2014, 10:26 AM
Can Kristen kidnap Ciara? It would be like summer camp for future hell raisers. I don't think Kristen would have to kidnap Ciara. She'd go willingly. lol. ;)
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lysie
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May 24 2014, 03:07 PM
Post #156
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- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 08:02 AM
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- May 24 2014, 12:45 AM
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- May 24 2014, 12:28 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I can't think of anyone trying to kill their cheating spouse. And even with NT Hope, she's not really the same person as Hope (since Hope didn't know she existed until Bo saw the video, and she couldn't believe that it was her physical body that had tried to kill Bo), so NT Hope/DT Hope isn't a fair comparison to Sami.
Besides. A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
After re-reading your post, I think I get what you meant now. you are saying that even though others have forgiven cheating in the past, Sami should not because of her experience with Jarlena. I don't agree, but I get it. But my point is not whether of not she should because forgiveness to me is a personal choice. But rather is it fair for her to be judged for doing the same thing others have done in the past with great support from the audience? I guess it comes down to personal preference. If we love the couple, we want them to forgive each other even after cheating. If we detest the couple, we want them to do the opposite. I'm not saying that at all. I didn't even mention Jarlena. I guess that's a part of it, but it's not relevant to my point. What's relevant to my point is that different people have different personalities. For Sami, cheating should be a deal breaker whether it's EJ, Rafe, Lucas, Brandon, Austin whoever. That's not true of the other people you mentioned. Meanwhile, I can buy Sami overlooking murder, but if Marlena had hidden Belle from John, I wouldn't have expected John to forgive that. He'd been forced away from kids before, and I think it would have been in character for him to have a hard time getting past that. It's not a double standard. It's two different people having different personalities and experiences that SHOULD shape how the react to things.
Forgiveness isn't a personal choice on television. That's only a real life thing.
My personal preferences have to do with characters, not couples.
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S loves EJ
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May 24 2014, 03:20 PM
Post #157
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- nananana7
- May 24 2014, 02:27 PM
. - Not Amused
- May 23 2014, 10:27 AM
If Sami forgives Ej for the affair; then she really has no self-respect left. :facepalm:
- S loves EJ
- May 23 2014, 12:46 PM
I think if someone should forgive cheating or not depends on the following;
1 Was it a short or long affair - Ejabby was a short one
2 Are there any circumstances that can explain why the affair happened - Ejami was at a bad place and wasn't sleeping together.
3 Are there reasons to believe it won't happen again - EJ hasn't seemed interested in Abby since he and Sami started sharing a bed again. it's Sami he wants.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I didn't say cheating was okay; but I can understand if someone forgives cheating if the above requirements are met.
Some people in real life get past cheating, some don't, but it's up to the person involved to decide if he/she can forgive cheating or not. I don't know if I would forgive cheating, but I can't judge if someone else does since it's their decision.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 02:45 AM
I realize Ejami has done other terrible things to one another; but since they already forgiven each other for that, I'm not sure if I think that should have a weight in whether or not Sami forgives EJ for the cheating.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 08:18 AM
I don't see how Sami could lose anymore self-respect for those who doesn't like the pairing if she forgives EJ for the least bad thing he has done after forgiving him for a lot worse.
- marie1969
- May 24 2014, 06:47 AM
to me, double standard is a situation in which two people are treated or judged very differently from each other in a way that is unfair to one of them. In other words, accepting that John forgave Marlena for cheating on him with Roman or Bo forgiving Hope for hooking up with Patrick while bashing Sami for doing the same thing is hypocritical IMO.
- lysie
- May 24 2014, 12:48 AM
A double standard is different from just having different standards. Some things are ingrained in certain characters but not in others. They shouldn't all behave identically in all (or any) situations.
- nananana7
- May 24 2014, 12:31 PM
I don't think this is about the *characters* having a double standard. I don't think this is about the *viewers* having a double standard.
I think this is about the characters being true to who they are, *AND* the viewers wanting the characters to be true to who they are.
Shawn Brady forgave Caroline for Caroline's affair with Victor. He found out about it many years later and Caroline had stayed faithful to Shawn since that time. Also, more importantly, it was part of Shawn's character to be loving. (Shawn's grudge against Stefano from the Santeen storyline was a retcon).
Bo and Hope are/were written to be secure within themselves as individual persons (with or without a romance). Bo was with Billie or Carly when Hope was either dead or divorced. Hope was with Patrick when Bo was either dead or divorced. (Sorry I don't remember the details; but it totally squicked me out to see Bo or Hope with anyone else, so I always avoided those scenes and storylines when I could because ewww, and I chose to forget.) But even more important than the circumstances is that ... it is in Bo's and Hope's natures to be loving and forgiving, and to focus on what's important.
WayneNorthrup's Roman felt secure within himself as a person with or without a romance. He was written to be somewhat ornery but he truly loved Marlena and believed in doing the right thing. Also, he didn't want to be with a Marlena that preferred someone else. Therefore, partly for her, partly for himself not wanting to be the woman's second choice, and partly to be nobly doing what was right .... -- he let Marlena go, and granted her the divorce so she could be with John. This was true to his character.
Sami, on the other hand, has her whole self-esteem entangled with how she perceives men loving or not loving her. She's rarely been shown onscreen to have any sense of self-worth as a single woman. It's very sad. Therefore, if her man is interested in another woman, she feels attacked, and makes it all about *her*. She has serious rejection issues. And she has serious anger issues that have plagued her for twenty years. Her character has been written rather inconsistently over the decades but it's usually shown that it's in her *nature* to be plotting revenge.
I believe that her prior forgiveness of EJ for his past crimes is out-of-character -- even though she's done crap to him.
To be written to character, Sami shouldn't have forgiven EJ for his truly evil/violent crimes ... Rape#1 (EJ extorting sex from Sami in exchange for not leaving Lucas to die); Rape#2 (EJ allowing FakeRafe to have sex with Sami without her knowing it wasn't RealRafe); EJ stealing John's kidney; etc, etc, etc.
The only way Sami would forgive these things is if she's severely mentally ill from all the abuse, or if a master criminal is manipulating her with a brainchip, or if she's a cloned podperson.
Heck, even the most loving and forgiving characters on the show ... should never have forgiven those three crimes! (Everyone's written out-of-character for acting like it's *normal* for EJ to be in Sami's life).
Anyhow. Even though the Ejabby sexual dalliance is a very minor thing compared to everything else EJ has done ... Sami's self-esteem is tied up in fidelity. So she makes fidelity paramount (and that's why the griefsex made no sense).
For Sami's character, a man cheating on her .... would be worse than rape or murder. I know that's ridiculously tragically sad, and very mentally ill, but that's how she's been written. She seriously needs to go to a inpatient codependency treatment center.
The Ejabby fling is really no big deal, a very short story arc. But for Sami's emotions and WARPED sense of self-worth, discovering Ejabby would be a huge travesty for her. And that's why *she* should be written as doing something drastic in revenge.
Edit to add a summary line: This is about Sami's WARPED sense of self-worth.
- S loves EJ
- May 24 2014, 01:41 PM
I don't think it made sense that Sami forgave EJ for the rape or Rafe2, but to me they shouldn't have been written in the first place. Since the actors has such amazing chemistry therefore I can overlooked it even if their bad history bothers me to some extent. I'm not sure if I agree that the stealing John's kidney would be unforgivable for Sami since I'm not sure if she cares about John or not.
I also don't think cheating would be harder for Sami to forgive than rape, and even if cheating would have been a dealbreaker before I don't think it should anymore since she is a cheater herself now, and not just with the griefsex she cheated on EJ in 2010 by making out with Rafe and she cheated on Lucas when she ran off with EJ in 2012 and made out with him in the safehouse, so it would make her a hypocrite if she doesn't forgive EJ.
This all comes down to inconsistency in the writing of Sami's character. When Sami was a teen, Sami raped Austin and she stole her baby sister Belle and tried to sell Belle on the black market. I don't excuse these crimes. But I understand them as the workings of a deranged teenager. I think the show dropped the ball by never getting her treatment for that. Sami was never a "good girl". I saw Sami as mentally ill, but not evil. But i saw EJ as evil and sadistic because his crimes were done as an adult. My preference was and is Sami to be with Lucas, but to be fair in this debate, I'll step aside from that and say this: If the writers intended from the beginning for Sami to have a passionate relationship with EJ, then the writers should *NEVER* have written EJ as having ever done all those horrible things. The writers should've had Sami with EJ Wells the racecar driver who was a dangerous womanizer but never evil. Or ... the writers should've left EJ as evil ,,,, and then separately written Sami have a passionate relationship with someone else. Sami was never a good girl, but she was never evil, and it made no sense for her forgive EJ's evil deeds. And it *NEVER* made sense for Sami to be a cheater. That was bad writing, too. To me, it's the *writers* who have conflicting standards for Sami's character. Oh and ... Sami did *eventually* grow to love and accept John and Marlena. Both Sami and Brady loved John and Marlena. The stupid writers messed that up by changing it into continued resentment.
I donīt think the writers intended for Ejami to have a relationship when they wrote the rape I think they didnīt really see their chemistry until afterwards and that they were planning to write EJ out but then he became popular so they realized they made a mistake.
I donīt know if I was a bit hard on Sami or not calling her a hypocrite but in a way itīs true, and even if itīs bad writing I think she is a different character now, but I donīt want Sami to forgive EJ in 5 minutes I do think she should be angry with him and want revenge on him before she forgives him. I just donīt think it should be a dealbreaker.
Anyway I donīt think EJ is evil maybe they have written him to be that a fiew times, but mostly he has been written to be grey than all dark. Itīs possible that could have liked him as just as a evil villain too but I donīt think that is his character now.
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Rosebud
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May 24 2014, 03:22 PM
Post #158
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- nananana7
- May 24 2014, 02:27 PM
When Sami was a teen, Sami raped Austin and she stole her baby sister Belle and tried to sell Belle on the black market. I don't excuse these crimes. But I understand them as the workings of a deranged teenager. I think the show dropped the ball by never getting her treatment for that.
She did get treatment, both alone and with her parents.
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nananana7
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May 24 2014, 03:26 PM
Post #159
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- CatherineEarnshaw
- May 24 2014, 02:39 PM
Roman and Marlena are decayed.
The only thing good abt R/M is one didn't rape the other
Not directed at you., but I want to say that it's such a sad commentary on the show that we find this noteworthy.
Currently, on Days, it's become commonplace for characters to rape or manipulate one another into sexual contact.
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Rosebud
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May 24 2014, 03:30 PM
Post #160
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- PALMommy
- May 23 2014, 06:17 PM
Heck, I'd be okay if the part of Roman was played by a Sesame Street puppet at this point rather than JT! Funny you mentioned this. I made these YEARS ago during the Melaswen nightmare.
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