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Friday, June 13th Daily Discussion
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Topic Started: Jun 12 2014, 11:36 PM (18,695 Views)
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waterlilly
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Jun 14 2014, 11:45 AM
Post #281
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I think that it is understandable for Daniel to be upset and disappointed in Rafe and probably knows deep down inside that he would do the same thing. We would all have a WTF reaction if he just shrugged it off. It's not like he and Rafe are on the same softball team or hang out together. They just need time (like 10-20)
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S loves EJ
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Jun 14 2014, 11:58 AM
Post #282
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- lysie
- Jun 14 2014, 11:33 AM
I just don't buy into this notion that people can't be angry at someone doing something to their family because they've done things to people, too. I don't even think it's hypocritical. It's just life. I couldn't possibly care less about Daniel/Rafe as individuals, as friends, as anything. But Daniel SHOULD be angry at Rafe (and no, not at Melanie). Daniel would have done the same thing, and if things were reversed Rafe SHOULD be mad at Daniel.
It's the same in other situations. Sami cheated on Rafe. In no way does that mean she shouldn't be mad at EJ for cheating on her. Stefano has killed people, but that doesn't mean if someone kills someone close to him he should just shrug and say "oh well." I just don't find those things hypocritical. That's just not how things work. It's like when people claim that a parent can't be mad at a child for doing something they themselves have done. That doesn't even make sense, IMO. Sometimes there's wording that makes it more hypocritical, but overall there's a difference, and I think "hypocrite" and "self-righteous" and "sanctimonious" get thrown around way too much.
While I agree that people have the right to get angry even if they have done simular things them self I would think it should make it easier for them to get over and forgive it, but I do think they should get mad for a while.
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DaysAddiction
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Jun 14 2014, 01:16 PM
Post #283
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- Lady Evol
- Jun 14 2014, 03:17 AM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 08:45 PM
Kinay this is not a contest to see who has committed more crimes. In retrospect it doesn't matter who is worse Sami or Gabi.
Lmao!!! That is NOT even a contest. I know you said you haven't watched long... I've seen some awesome, entertaining shoot outs between people arguing whether Sami or Nicole is worse, and I think it's usually a draw... but Gabi? That's like comparing a kitten and a lion for ferocity. Gabi has poor judgment and it led her to make some serious mistakes. Sami has committed more crimes in the last year than Gabi has her whole time in Salem. Hahaha sorry, I'm not laughing at you- just the thought of an a sin scale with Gabi on one side and Sami on the other. - Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 08:54 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 08:44 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 08:36 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
EJ and Brady didn't blackmail her son on two separate occasions.
She should have gone to the police. That's what most people do when they're being blackmailed... Unless you are being blackmailed because you did something against the law... :blulaugh:
Is it possible to blackmail you for something that was legal??? Where is the leverage? Yes Sami has committed more crimes but I like her better than Gabi. She is a better actress in my opinion and I just don't like Gabi. She rubs me the wrong way.
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DaysAddiction
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Jun 14 2014, 01:26 PM
Post #284
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- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 07:21 PM
I'm glad Sami didn't apologize. She has every right to feel happy Nick is dead. I honestly don't understand why people dislike this comment. Everyone was happy Nick died except Julie and Hope not just Sami.
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Rosebud
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Jun 14 2014, 05:52 PM
Post #285
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- DaysAddiction
- Jun 14 2014, 01:26 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 07:21 PM
I'm glad Sami didn't apologize. She has every right to feel happy Nick is dead.
I honestly don't understand why people dislike this comment. Everyone was happy Nick died except Julie and Hope not just Sami. Everybody? Seems like the only people that were happy were the ones involved in the story, and they happened to be the ones who were involved in the river coverup.
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The Room Stops
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Jun 14 2014, 06:09 PM
Post #286
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- Rosebud
- Jun 14 2014, 05:52 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 14 2014, 01:26 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 07:21 PM
I'm glad Sami didn't apologize. She has every right to feel happy Nick is dead.
I honestly don't understand why people dislike this comment. Everyone was happy Nick died except Julie and Hope not just Sami.
Everybody? Seems like the only people that were happy were the ones involved in the story, and they happened to be the ones who were involved in the river coverup. Marlena was not happy. I bet John was not happy. Allie was not happy.
Kate, Sami and EJ were happy. Gabi was not happy, she was relieved that she could breathe again from within Nick's hold. That's still bad, but I didn't see her as happy like Sami, Kate and EJ were.
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tomsawyer
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Jun 14 2014, 06:11 PM
Post #287
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- lysie
- Jun 14 2014, 11:33 AM
I just don't buy into this notion that people can't be angry at someone doing something to their family because they've done things to people, too. I don't even think it's hypocritical. It's just life. I couldn't possibly care less about Daniel/Rafe as individuals, as friends, as anything. But Daniel SHOULD be angry at Rafe (and no, not at Melanie). Daniel would have done the same thing, and if things were reversed Rafe SHOULD be mad at Daniel.
It's the same in other situations. Sami cheated on Rafe. In no way does that mean she shouldn't be mad at EJ for cheating on her. Stefano has killed people, but that doesn't mean if someone kills someone close to him he should just shrug and say "oh well." I just don't find those things hypocritical. That's just not how things work. It's like when people claim that a parent can't be mad at a child for doing something they themselves have done. That doesn't even make sense, IMO. Sometimes there's wording that makes it more hypocritical, but overall there's a difference, and I think "hypocrite" and "self-righteous" and "sanctimonious" get thrown around way too much. I don't think one needs to have "clean hands" to be justified in their anger. At the same time, I think strong writing takes the lack of their "clean hands" into account when writing how other characters respond to them. For example, Sami knows that Marlena has gone vigilante in the past to protect her family and Sami is the type of character to always throw other's misdeeds in their face, so it was odd they didn't have her do that on Friday's show. I don't think it's a matter of Marlena not being justified in her reaction to her daughter's callousness. It's that Sami wouldn't just take her comments without bringing up Marlena's own misdeeds. And on the reverse, there are characters that are unlikely to throw other's past mistakes in their face, so it's unnecessary to have them brought up in those situations. Overall, it would just be nice if characters were written to react how they would naturally react in a situation, but that's obviously not going to happen.
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 06:40 PM
Post #288
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- Honeybees
- Jun 13 2014, 11:38 AM
Marlena asks Hope how she is. Hope says she let Nick down. Marlena says when tragedy strikes we all think of what we could have done differently. One little thing. She says that kind of thinking is counter productive unless it helps you do better in the future. She says people without regrets are worrisome.
Cut to Ejami arguing about Kate marrying Stefano. Marlena is such a sanctimonious hypocrite. This is the woman who tried to shoot a man in the back at a church (the house of God) and showed absolutely no remorse to this day. Yet she is so appalled that Sami would feel no regrets for letting Nick drown (even though it was not premeditated). Attempting to murder an unarmed man is so much worst than what Sami did. As pointed out, Sami wanted to call the police and but Kate convinced her not to. At least she was trying to help Gabi, Will and Ari unlike Marlena who put Stefano in a coma for months. She would have let him rot in there forever and she showed not even an ounce of remorse while she lived in his home.
I am glad Sami stood up to her and made no apology for who she is and how she feels. I hope she will continue to stand up for herself and stop seeking her family's approval. If Marlena wants to disown Sami, even better. Mommy dearest needs to take a seat and STFU.
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Kaha
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Jun 14 2014, 06:55 PM
Post #289
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- tomsawyer
- Jun 14 2014, 06:11 PM
- lysie
- Jun 14 2014, 11:33 AM
I just don't buy into this notion that people can't be angry at someone doing something to their family because they've done things to people, too. I don't even think it's hypocritical. It's just life. I couldn't possibly care less about Daniel/Rafe as individuals, as friends, as anything. But Daniel SHOULD be angry at Rafe (and no, not at Melanie). Daniel would have done the same thing, and if things were reversed Rafe SHOULD be mad at Daniel.
It's the same in other situations. Sami cheated on Rafe. In no way does that mean she shouldn't be mad at EJ for cheating on her. Stefano has killed people, but that doesn't mean if someone kills someone close to him he should just shrug and say "oh well." I just don't find those things hypocritical. That's just not how things work. It's like when people claim that a parent can't be mad at a child for doing something they themselves have done. That doesn't even make sense, IMO. Sometimes there's wording that makes it more hypocritical, but overall there's a difference, and I think "hypocrite" and "self-righteous" and "sanctimonious" get thrown around way too much.
I don't think one needs to have "clean hands" to be justified in their anger. At the same time, I think strong writing takes the lack of their "clean hands" into account when writing how other characters respond to them. For example, Sami knows that Marlena has gone vigilante in the past to protect her family and Sami is the type of character to always throw other's misdeeds in their face, so it was odd they didn't have her do that on Friday's show. I don't think it's a matter of Marlena not being justified in her reaction to her daughter's callousness. It's that Sami wouldn't just take her comments without bringing up Marlena's own misdeeds. And on the reverse, there are characters that are unlikely to throw other's past mistakes in their face, so it's unnecessary to have them brought up in those situations. Overall, it would just be nice if characters were written to react how they would naturally react in a situation, but that's obviously not going to happen. This was actually done properly when Will was upset about Sonny bringing a gun to their home. To make a point, Will acknowledged his past and his regrets and told Sonny that he will never be able to live with himself if he shot Nick. I think Marlena could've done the same thing when she was talking to Sami. Instead, she was cold and talking to her like she's never done anything similar.
Another thing that bothered me about Sami/Marlena converstation was the way she presnted the river incident. It was not premeditated. Sami didn't want to kill Nick. It was wrong and stupid but it was not intentional. They thought they were throwing a corpse not a living, breathing man. I don't understand why was that point lost?
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 07:02 PM
Post #290
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- Restless84
- Jun 13 2014, 12:09 PM
Sami makes me want to rip out my hair sometimes. Yes Sami, you belong in a jail cell next to Gabi (along with a host of others).
So do half of Salem including Marlena herself.
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 12:21 PM
Seriously, how is Sami not reminding Marlena that she has tried to kill people before herself?!?!
I kept expecting Sami to throw that in Marlena's face and she never did. I am so disappointed with Sami. Such a missed!!
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Kaha
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Jun 14 2014, 07:05 PM
Post #291
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- The Room Stops
- Jun 14 2014, 06:09 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 14 2014, 05:52 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 14 2014, 01:26 PM
- DaysAddiction
- Jun 13 2014, 07:21 PM
I'm glad Sami didn't apologize. She has every right to feel happy Nick is dead.
I honestly don't understand why people dislike this comment. Everyone was happy Nick died except Julie and Hope not just Sami.
Everybody? Seems like the only people that were happy were the ones involved in the story, and they happened to be the ones who were involved in the river coverup.
Marlena was not happy. I bet John was not happy. Allie was not happy. Kate, Sami and EJ were happy. Gabi was not happy, she was relieved that she could breathe again from within Nick's hold. That's still bad, but I didn't see her as happy like Sami, Kate and EJ were. I don't think Sami can be classified as being happy. After Nick was murdered, she was freaking out and looked like she was losing it. Marlena even asked her if she wanted to talk to someone. I don't have the transcript but she even referenced Nick's remorse after she listened to his voice message. EJ had to tell her to stop freaking out before she makes herself a suspect.
I think her mother brings the worst in Sami, and she was just reacting to Marlena's condemnation by claiming she's glad he's dead. Most of her actions since Nick was shot show that she was regretful. I think she's angry with Nick for what he did to Gabi and her emotions are raw right now. Marlena badgering and browbeating her is not helping the situation. It just makes her defensive and that's why she's saying what she's saying.
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 07:15 PM
Post #292
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- lysie
- Jun 13 2014, 12:49 PM
- Kaha
- Jun 13 2014, 12:43 PM
- KAM
- Jun 13 2014, 12:40 PM
Nice Marlena segue from remorseless Sami to guilt laden Hope...and her line: "It's the people without regrets we should worry about."
That includes Marlena since she doesn't regret her multiple attempts to murder people she considered a danger to her and her family yet she's judging her daughter for the same thing.
Except that's not the slightest bit accurate. it is not?
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 07:19 PM
Post #293
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- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 12:52 PM
- Kaha
- Jun 13 2014, 12:43 PM
- KAM
- Jun 13 2014, 12:40 PM
Nice Marlena segue from remorseless Sami to guilt laden Hope...and her line: "It's the people without regrets we should worry about."
That includes Marlena since she doesn't regret her multiple attempts to murder people she considered a danger to her and her family yet she's judging her daughter for the same thing.
Who has she tried to murder?
ej and stefano.
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 07:28 PM
Post #294
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- daysjahvu
- Jun 13 2014, 01:01 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 12:58 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 12:56 PM
- Bright Eyes
- Jun 13 2014, 12:54 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
She tried to kill EJ during the black wedding - she just happened to miss, LOL.
Oh yea. I think she regretted that.
She put Stefano in a coma and gloated over him while she did it. The coma left him aware but unable to respond to any stimulus. I guess that wasn't actually killing him, but I don't remember her feeling bad about it. Exactly. She felt no remorse as I recalled. she felt justified just like Sami is feeling now which is interesting IMO.
I clearly remember Marlena standing by Stefano's bedside gleefully taunting him while he was in a vegetative stated completely helpless.
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 07:42 PM
Post #295
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- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:12 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 01:08 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:02 PM
- lysie
- Jun 13 2014, 01:00 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Didn't she taunt a "comatose" Stefano when she poisoned him back in 2008? She was pretty murderous toward the DiMeras circa 2007-2008.
But the point is she regretted it and talked at length about how wrong it was to do it.
I don't remember her regretting back in 2008. She and John were on canvas shortly thereafter. ETA: I'll trust your Marlena knowledge over mine, Lysie. I don't remember her remorse, but if you say so, I'll buy it. Regardless, I still think it was amazing that they didn't have Sami at least bring it up.
That's funny. I don't remember that either.
- lysie
- Jun 13 2014, 01:14 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:12 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 01:08 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:02 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
But the point is she regretted it and talked at length about how wrong it was to do it.
I don't remember her regretting back in 2008. She and John were on canvas shortly thereafter.
It was during the hospital gas stuff when she talked to her dead sister.
So she only regretted her actions after stefano came out of the coma and put her in the same vegetative state that she had put him. Ok I will take your word for it. If Marlena truly regretted what she did, why didn't she reverse what she did by giving him an antidote? It seems rather convenient that she showed regrets after her victim was no longer helpless.
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marie1969
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Jun 14 2014, 08:27 PM
Post #296
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- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 01:27 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:12 PM
- Rosebud
- Jun 13 2014, 01:08 PM
- tomsawyer
- Jun 13 2014, 01:02 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
But the point is she regretted it and talked at length about how wrong it was to do it.
I don't remember her regretting back in 2008. She and John were on canvas shortly thereafter. ETA: I'll trust your Marlena knowledge over mine, Lysie. I don't remember her remorse, but if you say so, I'll buy it. Regardless, I still think it was amazing that they didn't have Sami at least bring it up.
I think Sami knows damn well that what she and Kate did was wrong or she wouldn't be so worried that the cops might find out, but she can't bear to admit that to her mom (though I do believe she doesn't regret it or feel remorse).
Sami does not need to justify herself to Marlena. She is an adult and does not need her mommy's approval (which she will never get anyway). I do agree she knows that she was wrong and she does have some regrets as it was shown in the beginning of the story. She is just choosing not to share her feelings who is someone who is so quick to judge and condemn her. #teamSami
- Snowing Fan
- Jun 13 2014, 02:03 PM
Marlena did tell John in September 2008 she regretted the Stefano poisoning,but then John reminded her WHY she did it.
But putting a person in a coma is different than murder.
Putting someone in a coma maybe different, but it is not any better. It is like stefano choosing not to murder someone but erasing their memory and erasing their memory instead or holding them prisoner in an island. The emotional torture might be worst.
- KAM
- Jun 13 2014, 04:15 PM
- lysie
- Jun 13 2014, 01:33 PM
- Kaha
- Jun 13 2014, 01:29 PM
When Marlena was talking to Sami she could've said something about being driven to take drastic measures and living with the regret. Instead, she sounds like someone who's never done anything like that.
I don't disagree. I think they're writing her horribly and where Deidre used to act some subtext in things like that, she's not doing it anymore. I feel like this regime is relatively decent and pointing out certain parallels and hypocrisies, but really really bad at pointing out ones that would actually be useful to their stories and provide character development. They like to use surface level history and forget what the actual stories were and it drains from all character interactions, IMO. My disagreement with you wasn't based on today but on what you said happened before.
Yes, I do agree that -- as happens frequently with many characters -- the writers never delve deep enough. I find it especially egregious in Marlena's case, given her DOOL character stature and rich relationship history. They just will not give Marlena the focus she deserves, that would allow more pivotal connections to be made and could provide really memorable moments with her for a whole host of characters...Sami included, of course. And, for whatever reason, Diedre no longer seems to be trying to provide nuance on her own to the level she can. Maybe in this case, it's because AS is leaving? IDK. So perhaps there should have been additional beats hit in Marlena's conversation with Sami. That said, I do not think that the point of the conversation today was about Marlena's reactions to Sami's bad actions at the river. Marlena was horrified about that, but she wasn't going to be diverted into a discussion of all the dire circumstances that she and Sami and other Salemites regularly encounter. I think Marlena was much more appalled by the callousness exhibited in the aftermath and her daughter's utter disregard for the loss of Nick's life and its impact on his family. When Marlena tried to probe for some shred of conscience in her daughter, she got only Sami's bitter snark about her failure to drown Nick and regret that someone else pulled him out of the river. By her own statement, Sami has no remorse. I do not think she gets that from her mother. I have never seen Marlena as a remorseless person. To me, Marlena's musing remark to Hope that 'it's the people without regrets that we have to worry about' did not come across as judgmental condemnation of what Sami did. Instead it sounded like the true worry of an insightful mother about the void in what Sami feels. The lack of conscience in her daughter and the further damage to herself and others that lack may provoke should make Marlena's (or any mother's) skin prickle...and she doesn't even know about EJ's hit man...and that Sami placed the call and was ready for EJ to rub him out, too. So I stand by my OP that JMF and LB did a great job today in the segue of the Marlena scenes between remorseless Sami and guilt ridden Hope. I think it was both about character and then was a plot cue, when Marlena told Sami: "I don't want you to turn out like Kate." Not perfect stuff, but better than a lot of other scenes, IMO.
Except Sami did show regrets and remorse about both the rivergate and the hitman. After the rivergate, she was having nightmares, she could not sleep and 'Nick' was haunting her all the time. That IS feeling guilty. As for the hit man, she was also deeply guilt ridden and expressed regrets to Ej many times so much so that some complained how OTT she was. She even tried to stop the hit and was willing to Nick another chance because of Allie. We know she was not putting on a show because she only shared her inner feelings with Ej her best friend and partner. She only stopped freaking out when she realized that there was no blood in her hand or ej's.
IMO, Sami is just choosing not to share what she is feeling with Marlena because she felt that Marlena was judging her and condemning her like she always does. She does not trust Marlena, so of course she is not going to open to her and make herself be vulnerable to someone who sees the worst in her. Instead she put up the walls and got defensive.
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lysie
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Jun 14 2014, 08:39 PM
Post #297
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- tomsawyer
- Jun 14 2014, 06:11 PM
- lysie
- Jun 14 2014, 11:33 AM
I just don't buy into this notion that people can't be angry at someone doing something to their family because they've done things to people, too. I don't even think it's hypocritical. It's just life. I couldn't possibly care less about Daniel/Rafe as individuals, as friends, as anything. But Daniel SHOULD be angry at Rafe (and no, not at Melanie). Daniel would have done the same thing, and if things were reversed Rafe SHOULD be mad at Daniel.
It's the same in other situations. Sami cheated on Rafe. In no way does that mean she shouldn't be mad at EJ for cheating on her. Stefano has killed people, but that doesn't mean if someone kills someone close to him he should just shrug and say "oh well." I just don't find those things hypocritical. That's just not how things work. It's like when people claim that a parent can't be mad at a child for doing something they themselves have done. That doesn't even make sense, IMO. Sometimes there's wording that makes it more hypocritical, but overall there's a difference, and I think "hypocrite" and "self-righteous" and "sanctimonious" get thrown around way too much.
I don't think one needs to have "clean hands" to be justified in their anger. At the same time, I think strong writing takes the lack of their "clean hands" into account when writing how other characters respond to them. For example, Sami knows that Marlena has gone vigilante in the past to protect her family and Sami is the type of character to always throw other's misdeeds in their face, so it was odd they didn't have her do that on Friday's show. I don't think it's a matter of Marlena not being justified in her reaction to her daughter's callousness. It's that Sami wouldn't just take her comments without bringing up Marlena's own misdeeds. And on the reverse, there are characters that are unlikely to throw other's past mistakes in their face, so it's unnecessary to have them brought up in those situations. Overall, it would just be nice if characters were written to react how they would naturally react in a situation, but that's obviously not going to happen. Maybe even Sami realizes that a Nick/Stefano comparison doesn't really work, lol.
I both agree and disagree. There are times when I think it would flesh out the characters and stories, but there are other times I think it would just bog things down. IMO, this particular example would fall under the latter, but it definitely could have used tighter dialogue and some different acting choices.
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lysie
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Jun 14 2014, 08:47 PM
Post #298
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Marie1969, I'm not quoting your whole post, but yes. It was after Stefano woke up that she regretted it. Convenient? If wasn't too convenient for her, lol. She couldn't give him an antidote because she thought there wasn't one and she didn't regret until he woke up anyway. However, the whole point of her sister visiting her while she was in her own coma like state was for her to examine what she'd done . The gist of the conversation was that she'd lost her way and that what she'd done was wrong.
I think Sami showed remorse for hiring the hitman, but I think she's been pretty callous about the river from the beginning. It's been a frustration of mine from the beginning because I think that's actually very OOC for Sami.
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Tammy
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Jun 14 2014, 08:52 PM
Post #299
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I just want to know why Will was dressed like Mr. Rogers... :blink:
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lysie
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Jun 14 2014, 09:00 PM
Post #300
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- Tammy
- Jun 14 2014, 08:52 PM
I just want to know why Will was dressed like Mr. Rogers... :blink: Looking for new neighbors probably.
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