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Just Curious; no longer watching
Topic Started: Dec 15 2015, 08:46 PM (10,122 Views)
Hugo


laurondo
Dec 22 2015, 05:04 AM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 04:59 AM
laurondo
Dec 21 2015, 07:42 PM
astropastel
Dec 20 2015, 07:00 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they areSomeone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
If that were true then he wouldn't have had the story he had. He would've been killed shortly after admitting to everyone he was gay.
I think nobody denies the show has done good on that front, the GLAAD awards are there to prove it. But it's not because someone made good actions in the past that they can't do bad actions now or that it excuses them. What happened this year is really shocking, coming from a show that used to be gay-friendly.
Yeah, but that person is saying whoever's in charge are homophobic cowards, not that they simply made a bad decision (they did). If they were homophobic, Will wouldn't have become gay to begin with and if he had, he would've been gone long ago.

He was treated pretty fairly up until the dumb decision they made to have him be a victim of Ben's... and I don't know if I'd say they made that decision because they're homophobic.
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
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franciose


Soap operas were created by Proctor and Gamble to sell soap to housewives, who folded laundry and watched tv in the afternoons when the baby was sleeping. The story lines were all about feelings. Times and audiences have changed, so the soaps have to, as well. What they HAVE to do is be popular enough to entice advertisers, otherwise they make no money. Profit, not personal writer agendas, are what drive everything. These shows are products. If a consumer tires of a product, s/he quits buying. It's all about consumer dollar votes and nothing about changing social attitudes.


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Hugo


franciose
Dec 22 2015, 10:39 AM
Soap operas were created by Proctor and Gamble to sell soap to housewives, who folded laundry and watched tv in the afternoons when the baby was sleeping. The story lines were all about feelings. Times and audiences have changed, so the soaps have to, as well. What they HAVE to do is be popular enough to entice advertisers, otherwise they make no money. Profit, not personal writer agendas, are what drive everything. These shows are products. If a consumer tires of a product, s/he quits buying. It's all about consumer dollar votes and nothing about changing social attitudes.


If it's all about money, that means someone at the top drew the conclusion that gay characters were good for business from 2011-2014 and then bad for business in 2015. It's surprising. I would love to know what these conclusions were based on.
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thepadange
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Come on, does the fact that they killed off Daniel mean that they're "anti-doctor"/anti-medicine?
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laurondo
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Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:45 AM
laurondo
Dec 22 2015, 05:04 AM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 04:59 AM
laurondo
Dec 21 2015, 07:42 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they areSomeone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
I think nobody denies the show has done good on that front, the GLAAD awards are there to prove it. But it's not because someone made good actions in the past that they can't do bad actions now or that it excuses them. What happened this year is really shocking, coming from a show that used to be gay-friendly.
Yeah, but that person is saying whoever's in charge are homophobic cowards, not that they simply made a bad decision (they did). If they were homophobic, Will wouldn't have become gay to begin with and if he had, he would've been gone long ago.

He was treated pretty fairly up until the dumb decision they made to have him be a victim of Ben's... and I don't know if I'd say they made that decision because they're homophobic.
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
I agree that they screwed up Will's funeral (Sonny not being in the front row still irritates me), but Bo's wasn't really any better. They hardly showed any of his. No one even talked on his behalf. So far Paige is the only one who had a good funeral :lol:
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goo3


I haven't watched the show really since the Ben/Chabby stuff started to take over. I'm not fond of Griffley's stories. I check the board mostly for news about certain actors in case they are leaving. I'm interested in Dan's death and the immediate impact on Eric and Nicole. January may be the last time I visit.

The show will stand or fall on the stories and if the stories are not good enough to keep viewers hooked, its cancellation is on Corday and Griffley.
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esp13
Member Avatar


Considering where the ratings were in February when the writing change was announced - and where they went between February and August, I don't think cancellation (if it happens) is solely on Corday and Griffley. Well, Corday maybe. But, regardless of what happens going forward, the show was in dire straights BEFORE the changes. All Griffley can be responsible for is not being able to fully pull it out of a death spiral it was already in.
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DesignatedShelley
Member Avatar


I am sympathetic to where you're coming from, Hugo. When people are struggling for representation, things that happen to everyone across the board affect that group differently because they start from a different level on the playing field. While I do think that Sonny and Will were both casualties of other forces that have nothing to do with them being gay, I really do hope that the show does something with Paul going forward, not just with his family but also give him relationships.
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thepadange
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esp13
Dec 22 2015, 12:03 PM
Considering where the ratings were in February when the writing change was announced - and where they went between February and August, I don't think cancellation (if it happens) is solely on Corday and Griffley. Well, Corday maybe. But, regardless of what happens going forward, the show was in dire straights BEFORE the changes. All Griffley can be responsible for is not being able to fully pull it out of a death spiral it was already in.
If the show gets cancelled I don't think it will have much to do with the ratings - neither TomSell nor Griffley's numbers were that bad.
It's NBC's choice. WikiLeaks show that NBC wants to pay less and less for the show each year. It is totally possible that it can come to the point that Sony will think the money NBC is willing to pay isn't enough and both sides can't reach agreement.
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esp13
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thepadange
Dec 22 2015, 01:18 PM
esp13
Dec 22 2015, 12:03 PM
Considering where the ratings were in February when the writing change was announced - and where they went between February and August, I don't think cancellation (if it happens) is solely on Corday and Griffley. Well, Corday maybe. But, regardless of what happens going forward, the show was in dire straights BEFORE the changes. All Griffley can be responsible for is not being able to fully pull it out of a death spiral it was already in.
If the show gets cancelled I don't think it will have much to do with the ratings - neither TomSell nor Griffley's numbers were that bad.
It's NBC's choice. WikiLeaks show that NBC wants to pay less and less for the show each year. It is totally possible that it can come to the point that Sony will think the money NBC is willing to pay isn't enough and both sides can't reach agreement.
I don't disagree at all. My point was simply that cancellation can't be laid at the feet of Griffley.
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JTClassicSoaps
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J&M and Family Fanatic!

Wrong THread
Edited by JTClassicSoaps, Dec 22 2015, 01:48 PM.
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Drew
Member Avatar


seanny
Dec 21 2015, 12:34 PM
astropastel
Dec 20 2015, 07:00 PM
DJsMommy
Dec 18 2015, 06:59 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 16 2015, 02:56 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they are
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
I think the character of William Horton was killed because the NBC executives or whoever is in charge of public relations are homophobic cowards.
And they weren't homophobes the five previous years that Will was portrayed as gay? :eyeroll:

I think Will was treated just like any other soap character.....but that was a mistake on the TPTB part given that this was no ordinary role. The way in which he was brutally killed off was just plain horrible and not well thought out at all. TPTB seem to have completely forgotten or ignored the history of violence against gay and lesbian characters on television and film.

I don't think that there was any agenda behind what happened other than GW not working out in the role which in case he should have been replaced.
I appreciate that Days didn't use his sexual orientation as a shield against the character doing shitty things and dying. He was treated like every other character.

Looking at you, Saint Luke Snyder.
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Drew
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Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:45 AM
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
Because one half of the pairing quit and the other sucked and was fired the show's not gay friendly anymore?

Marlena, Bo, John, Steve and Kayla all received much shittier non-exists and they're show legends. This guy got a death scene, a funeral, and character returns at least. It was still written by the same recycled hacks so it wasn't by any means great, but there was at least some effort made.

Better writers may have used Ben killing Will as an opportunity to tell a social issue story about hate crimes and violence against a marginalized group, but it's still 1992 in Daytime still so they went for the psycho cabin in the woods hostage situation instead that we've all seen 100 times.
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Kriss4


This.

Sure. Will was taken off canvas in the serial killer storyline. But he did get an exit. He got a funeral. Salem grieves for him still. Maybe not as much as we think they should, but he is being thought of. He matters.

When Steve and Kayla left in 2009, there WAS no goodbye. We were just told one day that they were in Africa. Even when Kayla returned in 2011, she never got a story in four years. Four. Years.

John and Marlena got a rushed exit then too. They weren't even the main story the day they left. They didn't even get the most airtime on their last day.

It's only in the past few months that I think that J/M and S/K are appreciated.
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Hugo


thepadange
Dec 22 2015, 11:01 AM
Come on, does the fact that they killed off Daniel mean that they're "anti-doctor"/anti-medicine?
Kayla is a doctor and she's on a lot.
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Hugo


Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:51 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:45 AM
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
Because one half of the pairing quit and the other sucked and was fired the show's not gay friendly anymore?
It's not gay-friendly because there are no more gays on the show. They don't use Paul, they haven't introduced a new gay character, they haven't recast Sonny or Will. And sure they wrote an exit for Will but many people found it offensive, it would have been better to just have the character vanish in this case.
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Kriss4


They can still recast Sonny. I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

Christopher Sean was in a key role on Hawaii 5-0. That may play a role in his decreased airtime.

I don't know what's planned, but I'd hope Paul will get a story.

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sitrian


Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 06:06 PM
They can still recast Sonny. I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

Christopher Sean was in a key role on Hawaii 5-0. That may play a role in his decreased airtime.

I don't know what's planned, but I'd hope Paul will get a story.

Maybe, and I continue to hope that Dario is for Paul But they are shooting almost a year from their first episode and not a hint or a whisper of bringing back Sonny nor a pairing for Paul.
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DesignatedShelley
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I think that while Days may not hate gays, it is definitely fair to say that their level of effort towards gay representation has declined at least momentarily. All the other couples on this show, despite the fact that we all have our individual favorites, are heterosexual, and that kind of ubiquity is easy to take for granted. I think it's perfectly understandable that people want to see others like themselves in media and also that some appreciate diversity for its own sake, so let's hope that Dario is for Paul. They've got Paul, and the audience did respond to him, so they should use him.
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LuvingLumi
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Come on Ron, We are counting on YOU !!

astropastel
Dec 20 2015, 07:00 PM
DJsMommy
Dec 18 2015, 06:59 PM
Will&Sonny
Dec 16 2015, 02:56 PM
LuvingLumi
Dec 16 2015, 12:08 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they are
I don't think Tomlin and Whitesell were planning to go that far with the story. Granted, I no longer read interviews because I couldn't care less anymore, so it's quite possible that I might have missed something, but, from what I understand, they weren't even necessarily planning to turn it into a serial-killer story, period; they had simply made plans to kill off Serena, and, perhaps, they had planned for a necktie to be the instrument of her murder. Do we even know if they were planning to make Ben the killer?

In any case, the blame has to fall somewhere, and unless I'm given solid evidence to change my mind, I see no reason to let it fall anywhere other than at the feet of the people who were writing the show at the time it happened.

Also, writing Will off isn't the same thing as killing him off. Tomlin and Whitesell could indeed have been planning to write Will out of the show for a while so they could recast the role (along with the role of Sonny, if necessary), but I find it hard to believe they wanted him dead, considering how much they used him (and, more to the point, how quickly he stopped being used under the new regime). I think the new regime simply didn't want to bother putting in the work to fix the damage Tomlin and Whitesell had done to the character, and they wanted an easy target for shock value for what they had decided to turn into a serial-killer storyline. But we'll probably never have a definitive answer, one way or the other.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
I think the character of William Horton was killed because the NBC executives or whoever is in charge of public relations are homophobic cowards.
That makes absolutely no sense considering those same execs decided to write the character of Will as a gay man, bring on more than one other gay man and make a story with Wilson and then Threw Paul in there too
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