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Just Curious; no longer watching
Topic Started: Dec 15 2015, 08:46 PM (10,121 Views)
granolagirl
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#SorryNotSorry

I hope Days takes the opportunity to bring on some lesbian characters at some point. I keep hearing that Days was gay-friendly and representational when Will/Paul/Sonny were more front and center, and now that they're gone, they aren't. But there are other major groups that haven't had any representation on Days. Too often, "gay" means only "gay male."
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DesignatedShelley
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Maybe one of the young ladies could be bisexual. That brings its own particular issues that might let us avoid a carbon copy repeat of Will's coming out.
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Drew
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Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:59 PM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:51 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:45 AM
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
Because one half of the pairing quit and the other sucked and was fired the show's not gay friendly anymore?
It's not gay-friendly because there are no more gays on the show. They don't use Paul, they haven't introduced a new gay character, they haven't recast Sonny or Will. And sure they wrote an exit for Will but many people found it offensive, it would have been better to just have the character vanish in this case.
You can't really claim there are no gay characters on the show in one breath and then mention the airtime of a contracted gay character.

Makes me wonder if this is less about LGBT representation in daytime and more about a favourite coupling leaving the show?
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Drew
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granolagirl
Dec 22 2015, 06:20 PM
I hope Days takes the opportunity to bring on some lesbian characters at some point. I keep hearing that Days was gay-friendly and representational when Will/Paul/Sonny were more front and center, and now that they're gone, they aren't. But there are other major groups that haven't had any representation on Days. Too often, "gay" means only "gay male."
Exactly.

God forbid someone be bisexual. Maybe even trans.
Edited by Drew, Dec 22 2015, 07:45 PM.
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laurondo
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Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:41 PM
seanny
Dec 21 2015, 12:34 PM
astropastel
Dec 20 2015, 07:00 PM
DJsMommy
Dec 18 2015, 06:59 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they areSomeone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
I think the character of William Horton was killed because the NBC executives or whoever is in charge of public relations are homophobic cowards.
And they weren't homophobes the five previous years that Will was portrayed as gay? :eyeroll:

I think Will was treated just like any other soap character.....but that was a mistake on the TPTB part given that this was no ordinary role. The way in which he was brutally killed off was just plain horrible and not well thought out at all. TPTB seem to have completely forgotten or ignored the history of violence against gay and lesbian characters on television and film.

I don't think that there was any agenda behind what happened other than GW not working out in the role which in case he should have been replaced.
I appreciate that Days didn't use his sexual orientation as a shield against the character doing shitty things and dying. He was treated like every other character.

Looking at you, Saint Luke Snyder.
Oh god the way ATWT treated Luke... People should really watch his storyline and then see if they have anything to complain about when it comes to how Days treated Will :lol:
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laurondo
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Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 06:06 PM
Christopher Sean was in a key role on Hawaii 5-0. That may play a role in his decreased airtime.
He wasn't filming H50 for awhile there because they were on their break between seasons, so that wasn't really the case, I don't think.
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laurondo
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DesignatedShelley
Dec 22 2015, 07:07 PM
Maybe one of the young ladies could be bisexual. That brings its own particular issues that might let us avoid a carbon copy repeat of Will's coming out.
I really want Dario to be bisexual. I have a feeling that if he really IS for Paul, though, that they'll pretend his short relationship with Melanie never happened and he's always been gay.

Because God forbid someone like more than one gender lol
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cord08
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laurondo
Dec 22 2015, 11:47 PM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:41 PM
seanny
Dec 21 2015, 12:34 PM
astropastel
Dec 20 2015, 07:00 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepAll of 2015 has just been absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, and, if we're getting really specific here, I would have stopped watching on January 8th if I'd had any real choice in the matter. But Tomlin and Whitesell, for all their faults, at least had the decency to keep Will alive instead of brutally killing him off for no real reason other than shock value (then basically spitting on his grave with those scenes between Sonny and Paul). They might have spent their part of 2015 systematically destroying Will, but at least they kept him alive. I'd take that over what Griffith and Higley did any day.

In any case, for what it's worth, even speaking objectively (and you can, of course, argue that I'm not capable of doing so, but I think I am, so I'll throw it out there, anyway), I really don't have any interest in anything the writers are writing. I hated the serial killer storyline for obvious reasons, I'm sick of Abby and Chad (who seem to be the only couple the new team is really invested in), the pacing of Bo's story was absolutely terrible, the pacing in general isn't much better, I don't like the direction they seem to be heading in with the teens, I don't like how characters now sometimes randomly pop up in one scene of an episode and aren't seen again the entire hour (such a waste of a day for those actors), the mood of the show is extremely weird ("people just died -- let's have a party!"), Tony has basically taken over Stefano's role (which would work if Stefano weren't still around, but since he is, it just feels wrong to me -- poor Joseph Mascolo basically just sits there most of the time now, doing and saying nothing while another actor speaks for his character)... Well, you get the point. And, while I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, the writing itself is just off to me. Characters say things in one episode that contradict things they said in a previous episode (sometimes the previous episode), obvious story beats are being missed or overlooked (J.J. telling Jennifer and Abby about Paige's death, as one classic example), timelines are all messed up...the list goes on and on.

To be fair, the dialogue does still manage to make me laugh occasionally, so there's that, but I honestly can't say that I'm enjoying anything the writers are offering, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in any of it. Beyond that, I find myself thinking "that doesn't make any sense at all" or "that's not what you said on the last episode..." far more now than I did when Tomlin and Whitesell were writing.

So, yeah -- my main complaint centers around what the new regime isn't writing (or, more precisely, what they wrote to a conclusion that pissed me off more than anything Tomlin and Whitesell ever wrote), but I can honestly say I'm not impressed with what they areSomeone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any writer need to get permission from Corday/Meng, etc before killing off an important legacy character like Will?
And they weren't homophobes the five previous years that Will was portrayed as gay? :eyeroll:

I think Will was treated just like any other soap character.....but that was a mistake on the TPTB part given that this was no ordinary role. The way in which he was brutally killed off was just plain horrible and not well thought out at all. TPTB seem to have completely forgotten or ignored the history of violence against gay and lesbian characters on television and film.

I don't think that there was any agenda behind what happened other than GW not working out in the role which in case he should have been replaced.
I appreciate that Days didn't use his sexual orientation as a shield against the character doing shitty things and dying. He was treated like every other character.

Looking at you, Saint Luke Snyder.
Oh god the way ATWT treated Luke... People should really watch his storyline and then see if they have anything to complain about when it comes to how Days treated Will :lol:
A-freaking-men. (And this is coming from someone who generally liked Luke). If Days is homophobic (they're not, IMO), I don't even know a word strong enough to capture the discriminatory writing on ATWT. Seriously. It's night and day between the two soaps.
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DJsMommy
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Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 05:25 PM
This.

Sure. Will was taken off canvas in the serial killer storyline. But he did get an exit. He got a funeral. Salem grieves for him still. Maybe not as much as we think they should, but he is being thought of. He matters.

When Steve and Kayla left in 2009, there WAS no goodbye. We were just told one day that they were in Africa. Even when Kayla returned in 2011, she never got a story in four years. Four. Years.

John and Marlena got a rushed exit then too. They weren't even the main story the day they left. They didn't even get the most airtime on their last day.

It's only in the past few months that I think that J/M and S/K are appreciated.
I think a lot of the blame for the way the aftermath of Will's death was handled can be laid at the feet of AS. Where we saw Eve continue to grieve her daughter following the funeral, we got the polar opposite with Sami. As usual, Sami was all about Sami & her lovelife. :rolleyes:

Remember, AS "fought for" that story. :glare:
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DJsMommy
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I wonder what would have happened if Freddie had decided to stay on? Would they have killed Will anyway, you think?
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Hugo


Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 06:06 PM
Christopher Sean was in a key role on Hawaii 5-0. That may play a role in his decreased airtime.

Except Hawaii Five-0 was on hiatus between season 5 and 6 so Christopher was completely available from months. The only Hawaii Five-0 episode he shot from early April to mid-September was episode 6x01 and it was during a dark week for Days. This fall, he shot several episodes (6x08, 6x10, 6x11, 6x15) and those were not always during dark weeks but if it affects his presense on Days, it will be in the episodes airing in the spring. His little presence from mid-August until now is a choice from the writers, not a problem of availability of the actor.
Edited by Hugo, Dec 23 2015, 04:15 AM.
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laurondo
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DJsMommy
Dec 23 2015, 04:00 AM
Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 05:25 PM
This.

Sure. Will was taken off canvas in the serial killer storyline. But he did get an exit. He got a funeral. Salem grieves for him still. Maybe not as much as we think they should, but he is being thought of. He matters.

When Steve and Kayla left in 2009, there WAS no goodbye. We were just told one day that they were in Africa. Even when Kayla returned in 2011, she never got a story in four years. Four. Years.

John and Marlena got a rushed exit then too. They weren't even the main story the day they left. They didn't even get the most airtime on their last day.

It's only in the past few months that I think that J/M and S/K are appreciated.
I think a lot of the blame for the way the aftermath of Will's death was handled can be laid at the feet of AS. Where we saw Eve continue to grieve her daughter following the funeral, we got the polar opposite with Sami. As usual, Sami was all about Sami & her lovelife. :rolleyes:

Remember, AS "fought for" that story. :glare:
Well maybe partly. But the show also has Lucas... they could've showed him grieving just as much as they showed Eve with Paige and they didn't.
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Hugo


Drew
Dec 22 2015, 07:42 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:59 PM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:51 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:45 AM
The only sure thing is that the show suddenly stopped being gay-friendly once Griffith/Higley replaced Tomlin/Whitesell. So it makes sense to me to associate that specific change to them, rather than people like Corday and Meng who were already there before. And it's not one bad decision, it's a lot of bad decisions: all the little things attached to Will's death that the show got wrong and that sent homophobic messages.
Because one half of the pairing quit and the other sucked and was fired the show's not gay friendly anymore?
It's not gay-friendly because there are no more gays on the show. They don't use Paul, they haven't introduced a new gay character, they haven't recast Sonny or Will. And sure they wrote an exit for Will but many people found it offensive, it would have been better to just have the character vanish in this case.
You can't really claim there are no gay characters on the show in one breath and then mention the airtime of a contracted gay character.

Makes me wonder if this is less about LGBT representation in daytime and more about a favourite coupling leaving the show?
Having a gay character that we never see is like having no gay characters. Where do you see Paul on the show? CS is on contract but he seems to be on permanent hiatus. When he pops up once a month, he only gets a few lines. He is hands down the most underused contract player by the new regime. I doubt most fans realize he's still part of the show, maybe they think he's just recurring now. I hope it changes and he starts having more airtime again soon.

Personally, I'm really glad Will is off the show, I couldn't stand the character anymore so it was a good decision to write him off. The problem for me is the offensive way it was done. If they gave him a good death and if they wrote a farewell for WilSon, it would have shown that the writers respected the character and the couple. I know a lot of fans are pissed because they loved Will and Guy Wilson but I'm not one of them personally.
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Hugo


granolagirl
Dec 22 2015, 06:20 PM
I hope Days takes the opportunity to bring on some lesbian characters at some point. I keep hearing that Days was gay-friendly and representational when Will/Paul/Sonny were more front and center, and now that they're gone, they aren't. But there are other major groups that haven't had any representation on Days. Too often, "gay" means only "gay male."
It's true they need lesbian characters on daytime. They had a lesbian couple on B&B a couple of years ago, they were recurring but they have been MIA for a very long time now (Crystal Chappel was one of the actresses). It would be great to have one on Days.
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thepadange
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Hugo
Dec 23 2015, 04:39 AM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 07:42 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:59 PM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 04:51 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
It's not gay-friendly because there are no more gays on the show. They don't use Paul, they haven't introduced a new gay character, they haven't recast Sonny or Will. And sure they wrote an exit for Will but many people found it offensive, it would have been better to just have the character vanish in this case.
You can't really claim there are no gay characters on the show in one breath and then mention the airtime of a contracted gay character.

Makes me wonder if this is less about LGBT representation in daytime and more about a favourite coupling leaving the show?
Having a gay character that we never see is like having no gay characters. Where do you see Paul on the show? CS is on contract but he seems to be on permanent hiatus. When he pops up once a month, he only gets a few lines. He is hands down the most underused contract player by the new regime. I doubt most fans realize he's still part of the show, maybe they think he's just recurring now. I hope it changes and he starts having more airtime again soon.

Personally, I'm really glad Will is off the show, I couldn't stand the character anymore so it was a good decision to write him off. The problem for me is the offensive way it was done. If they gave him a good death and if they wrote a farewell for WilSon, it would have shown that the writers respected the character and the couple. I know a lot of fans are pissed because they loved Will and Guy Wilson but I'm not one of them personally.
I don't think Will's death was done in a offensive way. He was an innocent victim of the SK. He didn't overdose or kill himself and other people while DUI.
Yes, he didn't get goodbye scenes like Bo but so didn't Paige or Serena (it often happens IRL as well that you don't have a chance to say goodbye to the persons you love, and - not to forget - FS was out of the show at the time).
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JaimeLannister


laurondo
Dec 23 2015, 04:39 AM
DJsMommy
Dec 23 2015, 04:00 AM
Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 05:25 PM
This.

Sure. Will was taken off canvas in the serial killer storyline. But he did get an exit. He got a funeral. Salem grieves for him still. Maybe not as much as we think they should, but he is being thought of. He matters.

When Steve and Kayla left in 2009, there WAS no goodbye. We were just told one day that they were in Africa. Even when Kayla returned in 2011, she never got a story in four years. Four. Years.

John and Marlena got a rushed exit then too. They weren't even the main story the day they left. They didn't even get the most airtime on their last day.

It's only in the past few months that I think that J/M and S/K are appreciated.
I think a lot of the blame for the way the aftermath of Will's death was handled can be laid at the feet of AS. Where we saw Eve continue to grieve her daughter following the funeral, we got the polar opposite with Sami. As usual, Sami was all about Sami & her lovelife. :rolleyes:

Remember, AS "fought for" that story. :glare:
Well maybe partly. But the show also has Lucas... they could've showed him grieving just as much as they showed Eve with Paige and they didn't.
There's also Gabi who they could've used waaay more in grieving Will.
Edited by JaimeLannister, Dec 23 2015, 07:52 AM.
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thepadange
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Hugo
Dec 23 2015, 05:00 AM
granolagirl
Dec 22 2015, 06:20 PM
I hope Days takes the opportunity to bring on some lesbian characters at some point. I keep hearing that Days was gay-friendly and representational when Will/Paul/Sonny were more front and center, and now that they're gone, they aren't. But there are other major groups that haven't had any representation on Days. Too often, "gay" means only "gay male."
It's true they need lesbian characters on daytime. They had a lesbian couple on B&B a couple of years ago, they were recurring but they have been MIA for a very long time now (Crystal Chappel was one of the actresses). It would be great to have one on Days.
It happened because CC's co-star Joanna Johnson (who came out publicly in 2012 I believe) left the show for her job as a writer and EP..
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Hugo


thepadange
Dec 23 2015, 05:16 AM
Hugo
Dec 23 2015, 04:39 AM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 07:42 PM
Hugo
Dec 22 2015, 05:59 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
You can't really claim there are no gay characters on the show in one breath and then mention the airtime of a contracted gay character.

Makes me wonder if this is less about LGBT representation in daytime and more about a favourite coupling leaving the show?
Having a gay character that we never see is like having no gay characters. Where do you see Paul on the show? CS is on contract but he seems to be on permanent hiatus. When he pops up once a month, he only gets a few lines. He is hands down the most underused contract player by the new regime. I doubt most fans realize he's still part of the show, maybe they think he's just recurring now. I hope it changes and he starts having more airtime again soon.

Personally, I'm really glad Will is off the show, I couldn't stand the character anymore so it was a good decision to write him off. The problem for me is the offensive way it was done. If they gave him a good death and if they wrote a farewell for WilSon, it would have shown that the writers respected the character and the couple. I know a lot of fans are pissed because they loved Will and Guy Wilson but I'm not one of them personally.
I don't think Will's death was done in a offensive way. He was an innocent victim of the SK. He didn't overdose or kill himself and other people while DUI.
Yes, he didn't get goodbye scenes like Bo but so didn't Paige or Serena (it often happens IRL as well that you don't have a chance to say goodbye to the persons you love, and - not to forget - FS was out of the show at the time).
Maybe it wasn't their intention to be offensive but since it offended people it was offensive by definition. One of the things that offended me is that the gay guy was shown on the ground defenseless as the straight guy was sucking the life out of him. Why wasn't Will allowed to fight back a little bit? Ben might be stronger than him but to me it seems that they really wanted to portray the gay guy as weak. Then later, the body was shoved in a laundry bag like trash, it was a powerful image... I really don't understand why they thought it was okay to do this, they must have known that some viewers would be more sensitive to his death because of who he was.

Paige and Serena got more closure than Will. Their relationships with JJ and Eric were getting better at the end. Will didn't get to see Sonny again after he left for Paris. And Sonny didn't get to see Will at the hospital or at the morgue. There was no ghost scene and the show didn't even bother to show a flashback of the couple. I think they could have done way better than this, again knowing some viewers would be sensitive because it was a gay couple.

I mean, it is what it is, it's done. I just hope TPTB heard that what they did wasn't okay for a lot of viewers and that they learned a lesson.
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Deverauxfan
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Bellarke <3

Hugo
Dec 23 2015, 06:17 AM
thepadange
Dec 23 2015, 05:16 AM
Hugo
Dec 23 2015, 04:39 AM
Drew
Dec 22 2015, 07:42 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Having a gay character that we never see is like having no gay characters. Where do you see Paul on the show? CS is on contract but he seems to be on permanent hiatus. When he pops up once a month, he only gets a few lines. He is hands down the most underused contract player by the new regime. I doubt most fans realize he's still part of the show, maybe they think he's just recurring now. I hope it changes and he starts having more airtime again soon.

Personally, I'm really glad Will is off the show, I couldn't stand the character anymore so it was a good decision to write him off. The problem for me is the offensive way it was done. If they gave him a good death and if they wrote a farewell for WilSon, it would have shown that the writers respected the character and the couple. I know a lot of fans are pissed because they loved Will and Guy Wilson but I'm not one of them personally.
I don't think Will's death was done in a offensive way. He was an innocent victim of the SK. He didn't overdose or kill himself and other people while DUI.
Yes, he didn't get goodbye scenes like Bo but so didn't Paige or Serena (it often happens IRL as well that you don't have a chance to say goodbye to the persons you love, and - not to forget - FS was out of the show at the time).
Maybe it wasn't their intention to be offensive but since it offended people it was offensive by definition. One of the things that offended me is that the gay guy was shown on the ground defenseless as the straight guy was sucking the life out of him. Why wasn't Will allowed to fight back a little bit? Ben might be stronger than him but to me it seems that they really wanted to portray the gay guy as weak. Then later, the body was shoved in a laundry bag like trash, it was a powerful image... I really don't understand why they thought it was okay to do this, they must have known that some viewers would be more sensitive to his death because of who he was.

Paige and Serena got more closure than Will. Their relationships with JJ and Eric were getting better at the end. Will didn't get to see Sonny again after he left for Paris. And Sonny didn't get to see Will at the hospital or at the morgue. There was no ghost scene and the show didn't even bother to show a flashback of the couple. I think they could have done way better than this, again knowing some viewers would be sensitive because it was a gay couple.

I mean, it is what it is, it's done. I just hope TPTB heard that what they did wasn't okay for a lot of viewers and that they learned a lesson.
Huh? :ermm: :shrug: Just because some people were offended, doesn't mean that the death was offensive. He was strangled by a serial killer who strangled his other victims as well.
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Kriss4


DJsMommy
Dec 23 2015, 04:00 AM
Kriss4
Dec 22 2015, 05:25 PM
This.

Sure. Will was taken off canvas in the serial killer storyline. But he did get an exit. He got a funeral. Salem grieves for him still. Maybe not as much as we think they should, but he is being thought of. He matters.

When Steve and Kayla left in 2009, there WAS no goodbye. We were just told one day that they were in Africa. Even when Kayla returned in 2011, she never got a story in four years. Four. Years.

John and Marlena got a rushed exit then too. They weren't even the main story the day they left. They didn't even get the most airtime on their last day.

It's only in the past few months that I think that J/M and S/K are appreciated.
I think a lot of the blame for the way the aftermath of Will's death was handled can be laid at the feet of AS. Where we saw Eve continue to grieve her daughter following the funeral, we got the polar opposite with Sami. As usual, Sami was all about Sami & her lovelife. :rolleyes:

Remember, AS "fought for" that story. :glare:
I don't see why Ali fought for the EJ angle. Sami's time and focus should have really been on the death of her son and the grief she felt. If that truly was a condition for her return, then SHE weakened the aftermath of Will's death.

If she felt strongly enough about leaving the door open for Ejami, she should have agreed to return again in a few months for a short arc about that. This past visit should have been exclusively about Will.
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