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Griffith OUT!
Topic Started: Feb 18 2016, 06:01 PM (63,268 Views)
jennmarie
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Kriss4
Feb 20 2016, 07:47 AM
Ava, as written, is a plot device. She's a character with no redeeming character traits, whose actions fail to endear her to the audience. I'm not just talking about Steve and Kayla fans, either. Negative reaction to Ava is, for the most part, audience wide. Sure, there are Tamara fans who adore her, and small pockets of Ava fans here and there, but there are a lot of people in the audience who just despise her and want her gone.

It's not Tamara's fault. But...how would the audience in general begin to love a character that's so self-serving? Who lies? Manipulates a kid? Forces a man to sleep with her to save his fiancé? Tapes that happening without his knowledge or permission, sending it to said fiancé? Some villains we love. But Ava hasn't been given reasons that make many agree with her actions.

Ava is a predator. It's plain to see. So instead of looking forward to her return, many dreaded it, and given what's happened, I guess their reactions were on the money.



I probably shouldn't even weigh in really, but my interest is sparked by this conversation. I agree that Ava wasn't needed for Steve and Kayla to have story. With Steve leaving I think there was a much deeper, interesting story to tell than what they've done with Ava. I understand she has fans and I'm not going to negate their desire to see her onscreen, but I just don't think she added anything beneficial to the story. I don't really mind them bringing her back, but it would have been better to have her in a separate story, causing trouble elsewhere. I can think of way I'd have preferred her to be used, but I'm not going to get into that because this conversation is focused on Steve and Kayla. I think a lot of people realize that this is just an attempt to recycle stories from DAYS past - combination of the original Kayla/Steve/Ava story and Eric's rape story with the video. I think that is what makes this story so bad in addition to the damage it does to a supercouple. It's just not good story telling.
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esp13
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samskara2012
Feb 20 2016, 05:25 AM
laurondo
Feb 19 2016, 11:55 PM
lysie
Feb 19 2016, 07:27 PM
I think that the fact that Tamara even came back as Ava to begin with when the writers switched says a lot about how she must be a favorite to someones somewhere, especially when you consider the fact that Ava returning was NOT needed at all. :shrug:
Not needed by you and others who don't like the character. But needed by Tamara's fans who came back to the show to lend their support to her and added, however small or large, to the ratings. So I think in that regard you automatically negate the effect of her fanbase. Also you assume that just because she must be a favourite, she was brought back only due to that purpose. The point here is that Steve and Kayla despite their fanbase, would likely have been reduced to being nothing but as I call them "parental units" to Joey, and not driving their own story. The writing was on the wall once Steve got back from rescuing Bo.

I've seen it said on other boards that they could have helped Joey acclimate to being home. Fine, but that doesn't give Steve and Kayla their own agency. I've seen it said on other boards that they could have helped John find his parents. Fine, but that doesn't give Steve and Kayla their own agency outside of being helpers to John's story. I've seen it said on other boards that they could have helped Hope and Victor find the one who kidnapped Bo and held him prisoner for so long. Fine, but that doesn't give Steve and Kayla their own agency and only says they're only good on air to be helpers to the other characters who are actually driving their own stories. So what is the remedy for that? The remedy is bringing someone back from THEIR past to affect whatever variables will mark either an advancement in their story, or provide an impediment to them. So whether it was Ava or someone else, or someone new the point is whatever that was or would be, at least it's affording Steve and Kayla to drive their own story and not be helpers to others who are getting their own stories.

The above is all classic story telling 101. I'm a writer and I know that character A needs an action or incident to be set on their path in the story. Now if character A is supposed to be an A-Teir character, then he/she needs something to set him/her on his/her own way. In this case it was Ava. But the point is that, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Tamara or Ava, Ava was the one that was brought in to set them on their path. It's just those Steve and Kayla fans who are downright angry that Steve is now somehow tainted by what he had to do and the fact that Kayla was in the dark. So instead of being mad/angry/whatever at what happened, why not be grateful like I am that Steve and Kayla had a front burner storyline? I know I have been grateful for every day Tamara/Ava has been on.
Look, I think TB is a good actress and seems like a really great person, so let's be clear that a dislike (to put it mildly) of Ava as a character is not some kind of insult to TB. All she can do is play the character that's written and in this case it's a horribly written character.

I understand her fans want to support her, but I'm genuinely curious as to what could possibly be likeable about a woman who lies about having leukemia, manipulates a teenage boy, kidnaps a woman, and extorts sex from a man, all without any kind of clear motivation for why she's doing it or what she hopes to gain beyond destruction of a family.

That aside, the reason that this S&K fan is not "appreciative" enough for you is that (a) I've already seen this story - not only this literal story in 2008, but a similar version way back in 1989 and I'm not that big a fan of reruns, and (b) S&K had more than enough issues to deal with without Ava. Steve was gone for years and putting those pieces back together could have lasted much longer if they hadn't been rushed back together so that Ava could tear them apart again.

And you seem to think that S&K as more supporting characters would have been considered a bad thing by their fanbase. While I'm sure some feel that way, a lot of us were okay with the idea. We know that they aren't part of the generation that generally drives story on soaps. But being supporting characters doesn't mean having nothing to do- or at least it doesn't have to mean that. And if the only way the writers can come up with to give them a story is to bring in a crazy woman and take away Steve's brain and emasculate him then, or as was done in 2008, to remove Kayla's POV from everything and have her be relegating to a nonentity in what was supposed to be a story about her and Steve, then I'd rather let them be "parental units." A badly written story isn't always better than no story.

So, I wish TB nothing but the best. But unless she's coming back as Taylor or some other new character that Dena can think up for her, I'd just as soon never see Ava in Salem again.
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Hugo


Wild speculation based on assumptions that might be false. Let's say Dena and Josh signed contracts to write the show for 1 year last February. They get paid for a whole year even if they get fired sooner than that. In the summer, it got clear that Dena and Josh were not able to work together so TPTB decided to let Josh finish his 1 year contract without her and to hire Beth to help. Meanwhile, they promised Dena she would return after that and get to write the show for 6 months without Josh. In exchange, she accepts a pay cut during her LOA and her husband gets to continue to write scripts, maybe part of the deal is that he gets more scripts to write so they let go the new scriptwriter, Danielle Paige, to give him more work. Basically, I'm thinking that keeping Dena a little while longer saves them money and she will be replaced in the summer. And if the show takes a lot of breaks to change their taping schedule, she may not be able to write that many episodes.
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Daysfanatic79
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One had to go..........

I *heard* back in December (from internet sources and friends that are close to the show) that after the renewal Dena would be the one out. It was the consensus aongst the insiders I knew at Days, but slowly their assurance started giving way before Christmas. I have been through many procedures, and have kept loose contact with some that I know in Burbank, and haven't been around to talk about it.

To be honest, now that it's out, I may have kept my distance because I knew this was coming and didn't want to say it. It didn't change suddenly, and yet it did. It started becoming clear Hogan was going to be the one leaving by early/mid January. I have a big mouth, and I have people I PM with info. I love you guys, but this was too big, disgusting, and terrible to tell you. IF it had surfaced, I would have automatically pointed out as the person who let it out on the net, and lost the trust of a few awesome people. My trust factor has gone down b/c of me talking...so I had to just avoid it.


Josh Taylor and Roman........Dena Higley as Head Writer.....The Hernandez obsession...... Corday is an enormous problem that will not go away. He makes his choices based on loyalty and not what is best for the show. He will convince himself that he is doing the right thing, when it's obviously all about favoritism. He lives in denial.

Part of the new deal obviously involved how many HW's Days could pay, and Kenny Corday went with Higley. As far as I know, it was always known Days would have to cut it's writing team during the renewal process. He will say he chose Higley because she has this kick ass plan. Ken will say it's because of her extensive history with this show. He will say that she had so much influence over the original formation of storylines (which she had influence over some ideas, but the pacing has been all Griffith).

Dena will destroy this show now. Marlena and John relegated to nothing. Doug and Julie never seen. A Hope and Rafe OVERDOSE. Thaao needs to watch his back. The kiriakis family will be the central "Villains" of the show, and random trouble makers we care nothing about will come in and sleep with a popular hero or heroine and then disappear once the characters and couplings are destroyed.

After the renewal....I knew one would emerge.
It went from 100% Josh in November-Mid December,
to "Higley is much better and getting past her issues" in mid January
To hearing three weeks ago that Josh may be in trouble, and the show will change, and not for the best, under Dena's plan.


I love Days but that deserve cancellation once this blows up in their face. Josh was the best fit since Reilly. Ken will regret this, but given his history can anyone be surprised?

BTW: The two stopped getting along so well about 2 months into this thing, and Higley knows how to get a co-writer fired. SCAB! BITCH! USELESS! And those are the words that are kind. She is so snotty and prideful she'd drown if it rained. If only El Nino kept up its punch. I mean here in North ATL....It's been a snowy and icy winter, and I know LA had to get drenched at times......that's SoCal and El Nino.

Now I can come back!!!! YAAAAAAY! I can't keep my mouth shut and I couldn't say this. I knew it was on the cusp of breaking the other day. I was sick, but I didn't trust myself until this came out. I'm back my online family. I'm Back!
Edited by Daysfanatic79, Feb 20 2016, 10:52 AM.
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jwilds213


Hugo
Feb 20 2016, 09:34 AM
Wild speculation based on assumptions that might be false. Let's say Dena and Josh signed contracts to write the show for 1 year last February. They get paid for a whole year even if they get fired sooner than that. In the summer, it got clear that Dena and Josh were not able to work together so TPTB decided to let Josh finish his 1 year contract without her and to hire Beth to help. Meanwhile, they promised Dena she would return after that and get to write the show for 6 months without Josh. In exchange, she accepts a pay cut during her LOA and her husband gets to continue to write scripts, maybe part of the deal is that he gets more scripts to write so they let go the new scriptwriter, Danielle Paige, to give him more work. Basically, I'm thinking that keeping Dena a little while longer saves them money and she will be replaced in the summer. And if the show takes a lot of breaks to change their taping schedule, she may not be able to write that many episodes.
That's a nice idea as possible one which would be nice to come to fruitition
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cord08
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thepadange
Feb 20 2016, 03:22 AM
cord08
Feb 19 2016, 09:40 PM
Lovejm
Feb 19 2016, 09:28 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepHowever
Maybe that's part of the reason they "stopped" writing? Because they fired Josh and Dena was still on LOA?

I mean, even though I wish they weren't so far ahead, it is still strange to me that they'd go on hiatus right now unless there's something else going on. Trying to put in a new writing team (sans Dena) would make some sense.

Sigh. Yep, yep. The seven stages of grief. :blulaugh:
JG from Daytime Confidential posted that NBC wanted to shorten the show's tape-to-air gap. And it was a part of renewal negotiations. So this might be the reason they are doing it now.
And Lysie and Michael seemed to refute that. At this point, I trust them more. :shrug:
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Lovejm


thepadange
Feb 20 2016, 03:34 AM
Lovejm
Feb 19 2016, 09:28 PM
cord08
Feb 19 2016, 09:26 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepHowever, Josh was also allegedly fired from Y&R for creative differences and/or inability to work with the EP. So, maybe Higley wasn't the only reason he left/got fired. Maybe he had issues with someone else?

I know I'm grasping at straws here, but this whole situation is just so strange, and I want to be proven wrong on this whole thing about Dena.
I think the thing we can hold onto is that from all reports Higley hasn't even been back in the door yet. So while it's possible this was her return and pushed him out, maybe they weren't happy with either of them. So they let him go if it was that bad and figured they'd hang onto her until that can find someone. I mean someone has to be at least pretending to write until they get someone
Or maybe it was too stressful for him to continue. Or maybe they pay not good enough. Or maybe they slashed the show's budget once again and he didn't want to write a cheap show (I think Corday productions invested a little by more during the 50th, and that's why the show looked better). Or maybe he got a better offer.

I don't think it has anything to do with them being unhappy with JG. Unless they were unhappy with the money spent but this would be a problem for producers not HW.
I think it's a real possibility someone there thought he was too dark. Im not saying I agree but I think it's very possible that was a part of it. Which isn't only on him because people were approving the stories
Edited by Lovejm, Feb 20 2016, 10:47 AM.
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jwilds213


Daysfanatic79
Feb 20 2016, 10:38 AM
One had to go..........and I *heard* back in December that after the renewal Dena would be the one out. I have been through many procedures, and have kept loose contact with some that I know in Burbank, and haven't been around to talk about it. To be honest, I may have kept my distance because I knew this was coming and didn't want to say it. It literally changed on a dime.

Josh Taylor and Roman........Dena Higley as Head Writer.....The Hernandez obsession...... Corday is an enormous problem that will not go away. He makes his choices based on loyalty and not what is best for the show. He will convince himself that he is doing the right thing, when it's obviously all about favoritism. He lives in denial.

Part of the new deal obviously involved how many HW's Days could pay, and he went with Higley. He will say it's because she has this kick ass plan. Ken will say it's because of her extensive history with this show. He will say that she had so much influence over the original formation of storylines (which she had influence over some ideas, but the pacing has been all Griffith).

Dena will destroy this show now. Marlena and John relegated to nothing. Doug and Julie never seen. A Hope and Rafe OVERDOSE. Thaao needs to watch his back. The kiriakis family will be the central "Villains" of the show, and random trouble makers we care nothing about will come in and sleep with a popular heroor heroine and then disappear once the characters and couplings are destroyed.

After the renewal....I knew one would emerge. It went from 100% Josh in December, to "Higley is much better and getting past her issues" in mid January.........To hearing three weeks ago that Josh may be in trouble, and the show will change, and not for the best, under Dena's plan.

I love Days but that deserve cancellation once this blows up in their face. Josh was the best fit since Reilly. Ken will regret this, but given his history can anyone be surprised?

BTW: The two stopped getting along so well about 2 months into this thing, and Higley knows how to get a co-writer fired. SCAB! BITCH! USELESS! And those are the words that are kind. She is so snotty and prideful she'd drown if it rained. If only El Nino kept up its punch. I mean here in North ATL....It's been a snowy and icy winter, and I know LA had to get drenched at times......that's SoCal and El Nino.

Now I can come back!!!! YAAAAAAY! I can't keep my mouth shut and I couldn't say this. I knew it was on the cusp of breaking the other day. I was sick, but I didn't trust myself until this came out. I'm back my online family. I'm Back!
If this is 100% true then we need to especially flood Sony and NBC to force Ken to drop her ass and bring Josh or a better writer in.
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thepadange
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Lovejm
Feb 20 2016, 10:45 AM
thepadange
Feb 20 2016, 03:34 AM
Lovejm
Feb 19 2016, 09:28 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepHowever
Or maybe it was too stressful for him to continue. Or maybe they pay not good enough. Or maybe they slashed the show's budget once again and he didn't want to write a cheap show (I think Corday productions invested a little by more during the 50th, and that's why the show looked better). Or maybe he got a better offer.

I don't think it has anything to do with them being unhappy with JG. Unless they were unhappy with the money spent but this would be a problem for producers not HW.
I think it's a real possibility someone there thought he was too dark. Im not saying I agree but I think it's very possible that was a part of it. Which isn't only on him because people were approving the stories
Yeah, the stories had to be approved, so they can't blame Griffith for it. I don't think they care about the darkness at all as long as the ratings are good enough.
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cord08
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Daysfanatic79
Feb 20 2016, 10:38 AM
One had to go..........

I *heard* back in December (from internet sources and friends that are close to the show) that after the renewal Dena would be the one out. It was the consensus aongst the insiders I knew at Days, but slowly their assurance started giving way before Christmas. I have been through many procedures, and have kept loose contact with some that I know in Burbank, and haven't been around to talk about it.

To be honest, now that it's out, I may have kept my distance because I knew this was coming and didn't want to say it. It didn't change suddenly, and yet it did. It started becoming clear Hogan was going to be the one leaving by early/mid January. I have a big mouth, and I have people I PM with info. I love you guys, but this was too big, disgusting, and terrible to tell you. IF it had surfaced, I would have automatically pointed out as the person who let it out on the net, and lost the trust of a few awesome people. My trust factor has gone down b/c of me talking...so I had to just avoid it.


Josh Taylor and Roman........Dena Higley as Head Writer.....The Hernandez obsession...... Corday is an enormous problem that will not go away. He makes his choices based on loyalty and not what is best for the show. He will convince himself that he is doing the right thing, when it's obviously all about favoritism. He lives in denial.

Part of the new deal obviously involved how many HW's Days could pay, and Kenny Corday went with Higley. As far as I know, it was always known Days would have to cut it's writing team during the renewal process. He will say he chose Higley because she has this kick ass plan. Ken will say it's because of her extensive history with this show. He will say that she had so much influence over the original formation of storylines (which she had influence over some ideas, but the pacing has been all Griffith).

Dena will destroy this show now. Marlena and John relegated to nothing. Doug and Julie never seen. A Hope and Rafe OVERDOSE. Thaao needs to watch his back. The kiriakis family will be the central "Villains" of the show, and random trouble makers we care nothing about will come in and sleep with a popular hero or heroine and then disappear once the characters and couplings are destroyed.

After the renewal....I knew one would emerge.
It went from 100% Josh in November-Mid December,
to "Higley is much better and getting past her issues" in mid January
To hearing three weeks ago that Josh may be in trouble, and the show will change, and not for the best, under Dena's plan.


I love Days but that deserve cancellation once this blows up in their face. Josh was the best fit since Reilly. Ken will regret this, but given his history can anyone be surprised?

BTW: The two stopped getting along so well about 2 months into this thing, and Higley knows how to get a co-writer fired. SCAB! BITCH! USELESS! And those are the words that are kind. She is so snotty and prideful she'd drown if it rained. If only El Nino kept up its punch. I mean here in North ATL....It's been a snowy and icy winter, and I know LA had to get drenched at times......that's SoCal and El Nino.

Now I can come back!!!! YAAAAAAY! I can't keep my mouth shut and I couldn't say this. I knew it was on the cusp of breaking the other day. I was sick, but I didn't trust myself until this came out. I'm back my online family. I'm Back!
So Josh was going to stay originally? God, this is just insanity.

If what tipped the scales were those January ratings, I'll be ticked. It was MLK Day -- people were home from work. It was winter -- people were stuck inside. That leads to bigger ratings. It's not because the story was actually good.

Also, why would you pick the person who is known to be unstable? That makes no freaking sense. I just...

Damn. Thanks for all the info, no matter how depressing.
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rknudson78
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If too many of my favorites get cut I don't know what my future with days is. My favorites are -Brady,Nicole,Steve,Kayla,Shawn,Belle, Hope, and Rafe. That's really all I care about.
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Hugo


Thank you so much for sharing what you know Daysfanatic79. I understand you didn't say anything before and maybe it's better that way because it might have hurt the renewal negotiations with NBC.

So they knew they had to make a choice between Josh and Dena, they were team Josh while he was still headwriter (or they pretended they were) and when his contract was coming to an end, they flipped and decided to fire him and keep her. It's probably a really bad decision, the idiots running the show have no excuses.
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thepadange
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cord08
Feb 20 2016, 10:43 AM
thepadange
Feb 20 2016, 03:22 AM
cord08
Feb 19 2016, 09:40 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepHowever
JG from Daytime Confidential posted that NBC wanted to shorten the show's tape-to-air gap. And it was a part of renewal negotiations. So this might be the reason they are doing it now.
And Lysie and Michael seemed to refute that. At this point, I trust them more. :shrug:
I thought they were saying there was no need to worry about the renewal and they were right.

As it makes perfect sense for NBC to shorten the gap between taping and airing I'm intent to believe it was NBC's demand. I don't see them doing it on their own initiative.

Edited by thepadange, Feb 20 2016, 11:52 AM.
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Hugo


I bet what Josh is writing is more expensive to produce that what Dena is writing and that played in her favour, especially if NBC asked them to lower the license fee again in January.
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Sindacco
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ssedai2
Feb 19 2016, 01:29 AM
How did she ever get hired in the first place if that's her creative process? She wouldn't succeed in the indie book publishing world on Kindle Unlimited with this kind of crap.

From what I get, she does very little except pitch ideas.
Exactly. Higley always gets credit for the babyswitch, and she did come up with the idea of Nicole switching Sami's baby, but it was TomSell who plotted it out and made it an actual storyline.
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cord08
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Hugo
Feb 20 2016, 11:16 AM
I bet what Josh is writing is more expensive to produce that what Dena is writing and that played in her favour, especially if NBC asked them to lower the license fee again in January.
Maybe, but I don't really understand why that would be. Dena likes to write events -- plot, plot, plot -- like the crash. Events should seemingly cost more money than say more character-driven stuff where you just need two actors and a set.

I guess it could be that Dena doesn't really write for vets, so they can either fire them or give them lower guarantees. UGH.
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PhoenixRising05
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Hugo
Feb 20 2016, 11:16 AM
I bet what Josh is writing is more expensive to produce that what Dena is writing and that played in her favour, especially if NBC asked them to lower the license fee again in January.
It's like 2003 all over again.

Corday used that same excuse to get rid of Brash and Cwickly, who did an amazing job and had good ratings and were praised by both fans and critics. He got rid of them for Higley because the show was going through renewal issues and had to be more budget conscious and he said she had this amazing plan, knew the show from her long history on the writing team, and could keep the show more in line with a budget.

It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. He just LOVES Higley. No one would keep bringing someone like her back with her track record over and over again unless that was the case.
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Lovejm


PhoenixRising05
Feb 20 2016, 11:24 AM
Hugo
Feb 20 2016, 11:16 AM
I bet what Josh is writing is more expensive to produce that what Dena is writing and that played in her favour, especially if NBC asked them to lower the license fee again in January.
It's like 2003 all over again.

Corday used that same excuse to get rid of Brash and Cwickly, who did an amazing job and had good ratings and were praised by both fans and critics. He got rid of them for Higley because the show was going through renewal issues and had to be more budget conscious and he said she had this amazing plan, knew the show from her long history on the writing team, and could keep the show more in line with a budget.

It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. He just LOVES Higley. No one would keep bringing someone like her back with her track record over and over again unless that was the case.
Higley 2003. UGH

That's the stupid shit that caused all the DH's problems with her.
Edited by Lovejm, Feb 20 2016, 11:29 AM.
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PhoenixRising05
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Sindacco
Feb 20 2016, 11:21 AM
ssedai2
Feb 19 2016, 01:29 AM
How did she ever get hired in the first place if that's her creative process? She wouldn't succeed in the indie book publishing world on Kindle Unlimited with this kind of crap.

From what I get, she does very little except pitch ideas.
Exactly. Higley always gets credit for the babyswitch, and she did come up with the idea of Nicole switching Sami's baby, but it was TomSell who plotted it out and made it an actual storyline.
Yep.

That story had pacing. Dena can't do pacing. She can't do anything a capable writer can. That story built up over a year. Dena can't even build a one more story arc right.
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cord08
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PhoenixRising05
Feb 20 2016, 11:24 AM
Hugo
Feb 20 2016, 11:16 AM
I bet what Josh is writing is more expensive to produce that what Dena is writing and that played in her favour, especially if NBC asked them to lower the license fee again in January.
It's like 2003 all over again.

Corday used that same excuse to get rid of Brash and Cwickly, who did an amazing job and had good ratings and were praised by both fans and critics. He got rid of them for Higley because the show was going through renewal issues and had to be more budget conscious and he said she had this amazing plan, knew the show from her long history on the writing team, and could keep the show more in line with a budget.

It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. He just LOVES Higley. No one would keep bringing someone like her back with her track record over and over again unless that was the case.
Exactly. I mean, isn't it telling that she seemingly was not hired by another soap after she was fired in 2011? After he stint at OLTL, I wouldn't be surprised if she was blackballed at ABC.

It's really sad that at this point I'm like, "From a creative standpoint, it would probably be better if my favorite characters were written out just so Higley can't destroy them again." I don't want that to happen for the actors' sake, but man...
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