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Friday, February 26th Episode Discussion
Topic Started: Feb 25 2016, 06:41 PM (19,331 Views)
frivolity
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Kyrai
Feb 28 2016, 07:25 AM
Restless84
Feb 27 2016, 08:16 PM
nananana7
Feb 27 2016, 08:08 PM
Andre blackmailed Aiden into being a "hitman" -- to kill Hope.

I have a question: Did Stefano know that Andre ordered the hit on Hope? Was Stefano complicit in the crime?

(I focused more on the non-murder storylines, and didn't focus on the murder plots, so I honestly don't know.)
Yes, Stefano knew Andre had Aidren try to kill Hope. He was in the room when they had their discussions.
Exactly.

There were so many ways the writers could have made killing Stefano justified. Hope or Rafe could have found proof that Aiden was working for Stefano, so they went after him. Stefano and Andre could have gotten shot trying to kill Hope or Rafe to get away, true self defense. They could have even had Stefano/Andre finding out Belle has their money (everyone else knows!), and while threatening Belle, had a shoot out.

Or they could have simply arrested Hope and had her mentally evaluated and put in a mental institution for even a week, it would have been better than the police covering up a murder.
Since I was just re-watching 1990 after Hope "died" and Bo became the Riverfront Raider, I am realizing that the writers were attempting to pull a similar storyline for Hope. Bo was inconsolable and used his vigilante justice as a means to deflect from his grief and also try to protect his son and his community since he wasn't able to protect Hope. It seems that the overall narrative was supposed to be parallel with Hope - her need for justice as a way to deal with Bo's death, etc. The big problem was the execution. With Bo, we saw and felt his grief every day for months and he channeled it a way that seemed very justified. With Hope, she has barely mentioned Bo, she certainly hasn't seemed to be grieving, and her murder and cover-up of Stefano was so OTT and didn't seem justified, simply because the way it was done was so cold-hearted (particularly the burying of his body). All I can say is that I think the general idea was good, but the current and recent writing regimes just cannot seem to carry through on the details in any meaningful, emotional, or rational way.
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Luce


stormymac
Feb 28 2016, 08:46 AM
anzu
Feb 26 2016, 06:48 PM
Luce
Feb 26 2016, 03:31 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I wanted sonny back like ths too because it is insane to me how nonreactive he was to trauma after trauma last year. I would also love for Paul to talk him off the edge. My worry is josh doesnt know how to write characters on the edge. He just kicks them right off and Sonny is probably the best person on the show. I dont want him killing anyone or kicking puppies or whatwver other compelling darkness josh can dream up. But alas he might be back for 4 days again so i wont get my hopes up.
Add to the fact that he was the one who gave Ben a job, continually defended him against Chad (rightfully so, IMO) and got him the apartment where Ben would eventually kill his husband, then Sonny should absolutely be different, personality-wise. But, like you, I won't be holding my breath. My one desperate hope is that he won't be a fucking doormat this time around.
Oh yes, I had forgotten my wish for seeing how Sonny would react to who exactly it was that killed Will.

He also had a non-reaction to being stabbed, for the most part. I'd have liked him to appear a little more realistically traumatized by that too, but I think that's pretty on-par for this show unfortunately.
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Boisthebest


frivolity
Feb 28 2016, 10:41 AM
Kyrai
Feb 28 2016, 07:25 AM
Restless84
Feb 27 2016, 08:16 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Exactly.

There were so many ways the writers could have made killing Stefano justified. Hope or Rafe could have found proof that Aiden was working for Stefano, so they went after him. Stefano and Andre could have gotten shot trying to kill Hope or Rafe to get away, true self defense. They could have even had Stefano/Andre finding out Belle has their money (everyone else knows!), and while threatening Belle, had a shoot out.

Or they could have simply arrested Hope and had her mentally evaluated and put in a mental institution for even a week, it would have been better than the police covering up a murder.
Since I was just re-watching 1990 after Hope "died" and Bo became the Riverfront Raider, I am realizing that the writers were attempting to pull a similar storyline for Hope. Bo was inconsolable and used his vigilante justice as a means to deflect from his grief and also try to protect his son and his community since he wasn't able to protect Hope. It seems that the overall narrative was supposed to be parallel with Hope - her need for justice as a way to deal with Bo's death, etc. The big problem was the execution. With Bo, we saw and felt his grief every day for months and he channeled it a way that seemed very justified. With Hope, she has barely mentioned Bo, she certainly hasn't seemed to be grieving, and her murder and cover-up of Stefano was so OTT and didn't seem justified, simply because the way it was done was so cold-hearted (particularly the burying of his body). All I can say is that I think the general idea was good, but the current and recent writing regimes just cannot seem to carry through on the details in any meaningful, emotional, or rational way.
You nailed it. And despite my having NO PROBLEM whatsoever with Hope kill the sadistic old man, and I believe she was justified, particularly as he goaded her with taunts and insults, the actual writing and execution and everything else just fell so short of what it should have/could have been.

When Hope died, we saw Bo's family, trying, albeit often failing, to console him, talk to him, let him know they were there for him. Not even seeing Doug or Julie with Hope after Bo's death was awful......not seeing Hope and Shawn and Ciara, talking, crying, grieving together was absolutely ridiculous. We saw Jen TRYING one night. And boom, that was it. Hope became the vigilante and yet they disallowed us seeing her tender grief with Ciara who, in many ways, needed consoling and feeling safe much more than a very young Shawn D.

The writing lacked focus, cheated fans out of grieving with and for Hope. :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:
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lysie


Boisthebest
Feb 28 2016, 08:18 AM
lysie
Feb 27 2016, 10:38 PM
Boisthebest
Feb 27 2016, 10:00 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
It's not that I don't agree that he deserved worse. But the way it played out was horrible. There could have been a good story in Hope getting the wrong man. They just didn't hit anywhere near that story, and the result is that it made Hope look pathetic...and not in a soapy, dramatic way. I do think they salvaged some of it on Friday. Time will tell if they'll be able to salvage all of it, but I doubt they will. Where they really screwed up was having her confess to the other murder and then frame Andre. And again...I'm not saying Andre doesn't deserve that, too. It just wasn't done well.

And wanting something different from the good guys than the bad guys isn't living in different realities. It's thinking more highly of some characters than others. It's believing that some characters shouldn't have to sink to the lows as others. It's believing that good can triumph over evil. Having an occasional slip up is one thing. That can be dramatic. But sometimes Days takes it too far.
DAYS takes a lot of things too far, as do many of the soaps. For me, romanticizing rape, as in making rapists leading romantic men was way too far. Or having any character we are supposed to admire/think highly of, like say Abe or Lexi, allow their son have a relationship with someone they KNEW had kidnapped, shot, emotionally and physically abused others cause they are "related."

Again, I think for me, the show became so totally lopsided, when the characters I am supposed to think highly of, came off as zombie stupid. I remember back in the day (83-84), the first time Marlena found out that Stefano had "killed Roman", had kidnapped the twins, she went after him. Her intent was to kill him, no holds barred. THAT to me made Marlena believable. For many of what I considered the "quality" writing years, Stefano was a villain, acknowledged as one, and was not able to hobnob in Salem, mock his victims, invite his victims' families to work for him, be involved in the lives of his victims. Back then, I wanted the good guys to be better because I still believed, writing wise there was always a chance someone would take Stefano down. Later it became a joke. Stefano and his minions could do the most heinous things, with the most asinine justification fed to the audience, and still be allowed to be in Salem, mocking the victims daily.

I know many disagree, and that is why this is a debate. I cheered when Marlena, despite her position of lead heroine for years, gave Stefano a drug that paralyzed him but left his conscious brain working while nothing else did. That was probably one of the most sadistic things one could do to a person. Yet, it did not diminish her in my eyes because Stefano's years of sadism imposed on John and Marlena certainly warranted it. Same with Hope this time. Hope's actions were not as cruel as what Marlena did, just more permanent.

Was it written well?? Nope? Was it the best way to write out Stefano? Probably not? But I can say that about many stories over the year. However, for me at least, it was balanced. FINALLY one of Stefano's victims took away his Salem pass ....permanently. I know many disagree. This debate proves that. But I had been sick of the joke they made of the good guys for better than 20 years now so I was happy for some balance even though I know it won't last.

I have said it before and I say it again. To me, the genre started going downhill when the villains began to drive most of the stories, and all the good guys got to do is suffer and play the foil.
But you're admittedly comparing a better written story to a badly written story. If the current story with Hope had been written better, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I've said repeatedly that there are ways this story could have worked. I'm not unaware that other characters have done similarly. They just did it poorly this time.
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AngelaP
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Boisthebest
Feb 28 2016, 11:32 AM
You nailed it. And despite my having NO PROBLEM whatsoever with Hope kill the sadistic old man, and I believe she was justified, particularly as he goaded her with taunts and insults, the actual writing and execution and everything else just fell so short of what it should have/could have been.

When Hope died, we saw Bo's family, trying, albeit often failing, to console him, talk to him, let him know they were there for him. Not even seeing Doug or Julie with Hope after Bo's death was awful......not seeing Hope and Shawn and Ciara, talking, crying, grieving together was absolutely ridiculous. We saw Jen TRYING one night. And boom, that was it. Hope became the vigilante and yet they disallowed us seeing her tender grief with Ciara who, in many ways, needed consoling and feeling safe much more than a very young Shawn D.

The writing lacked focus, cheated fans out of grieving with and for Hope. :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:
I thought everything that happened up to that shooting and including the shooting was done well for the story they were telling. The story was Hope had lost much of her mental grip after an extreme amount of trauma and was heading down a road where she was going to do something really bad that she shouldn't do to "make things right" re:Bo. The story was a bit tedious because you literally had Hope dark, only dark for 6-7 weeks straight but the escalation was IMO on point. I didn't like that Hope's family & friends didn't even much try to interact with her or Ciara for the duration of the story (sans Jennifer), but it was never lost on me how Hope/why Hope was at this point so meh on the family point.

As soon as the episode where Hope shot Stefano was completed, Dena put down the order that Bo's name not even be hinted at again. [I know when Josh took over from Dena due to the hint of Bo's name again]. Hope was in a numb stage before this, and at this point in the story we should have seen her dealing with the loss without the numbing agent. You needed the mention of Bo over her actions after the murder. I've said this here and elsewhere, I get why Hope would have had little to no conscience after shooting Stefano due to her beliefs and anger and IMO it actually would have been better to write her more like Rafe was written - and him more like her with the mini signs of conscience - due to that. That said, the show stopped even hinting at her motive after this point, so the cover-up/framing never was going to work all that well. Dena started writing this like a psuedo "romantic"-comedy which was insane.

Dena's 6 weeks of WTF doesn't really ruin Hope's character for me at all though. Josh is picking up beats that I knew were there under the horrible writing, at least so far. I feel absolutely no sympathy for Stefano and Andre. It feels quite karmic that the Dimera's got taken out for something they didn't do compiled with the fact that they - unbeknownst to anybody - did something very bad to Hope that really did assist in leading her down the road where she could be so cruel/blind in handling justice.
Edited by AngelaP, Feb 28 2016, 01:30 PM.
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lysie


One other major problem with this story is Andre. He's not the slightest but sympathetic. He was the wrong villain to put into this situation.
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Lovejm


Friday's show was definitely the best of the week. It annoys the hell of out me we sat through so much crap the last three months.
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Deverauxfan
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Bellarke <3

lysie
Feb 28 2016, 05:38 PM
One other major problem with this story is Andre. He's not the slightest but sympathetic. He was the wrong villain to put into this situation.
No one in this story is sympathetic. Hope/Rafe/Andre all suck. :-/
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concerned
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I'm feeling rather nostalgic for the Days of simple blackmail and petty revenge schemes and secret affairs.
Edited by concerned, Feb 28 2016, 07:26 PM.
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concerned
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Has Victor fully informed Maggie about Deimos?
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Boisthebest


AngelaP
Feb 28 2016, 01:28 PM
Boisthebest
Feb 28 2016, 11:32 AM
You nailed it. And despite my having NO PROBLEM whatsoever with Hope kill the sadistic old man, and I believe she was justified, particularly as he goaded her with taunts and insults, the actual writing and execution and everything else just fell so short of what it should have/could have been.

When Hope died, we saw Bo's family, trying, albeit often failing, to console him, talk to him, let him know they were there for him. Not even seeing Doug or Julie with Hope after Bo's death was awful......not seeing Hope and Shawn and Ciara, talking, crying, grieving together was absolutely ridiculous. We saw Jen TRYING one night. And boom, that was it. Hope became the vigilante and yet they disallowed us seeing her tender grief with Ciara who, in many ways, needed consoling and feeling safe much more than a very young Shawn D.

The writing lacked focus, cheated fans out of grieving with and for Hope. :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:
I thought everything that happened up to that shooting and including the shooting was done well for the story they were telling. The story was Hope had lost much of her mental grip after an extreme amount of trauma and was heading down a road where she was going to do something really bad that she shouldn't do to "make things right" re:Bo. The story was a bit tedious because you literally had Hope dark, only dark for 6-7 weeks straight but the escalation was IMO on point. I didn't like that Hope's family & friends didn't even much try to interact with her or Ciara for the duration of the story (sans Jennifer), but it was never lost on me how Hope/why Hope was at this point so meh on the family point.

As soon as the episode where Hope shot Stefano was completed, Dena put down the order that Bo's name not even be hinted at again. [I know when Josh took over from Dena due to the hint of Bo's name again]. Hope was in a numb stage before this, and at this point in the story we should have seen her dealing with the loss without the numbing agent. You needed the mention of Bo over her actions after the murder. I've said this here and elsewhere, I get why Hope would have had little to no conscience after shooting Stefano due to her beliefs and anger and IMO it actually would have been better to write her more like Rafe was written - and him more like her with the mini signs of conscience - due to that. That said, the show stopped even hinting at her motive after this point, so the cover-up/framing never was going to work all that well. Dena started writing this like a psuedo "romantic"-comedy which was insane.

Dena's 6 weeks of WTF doesn't really ruin Hope's character for me at all though. Josh is picking up beats that I knew were there under the horrible writing, at least so far. I feel absolutely no sympathy for Stefano and Andre. It feels quite karmic that the Dimera's got taken out for something they didn't do compiled with the fact that they - unbeknownst to anybody - did something very bad to Hope that really did assist in leading her down the road where she could be so cruel/blind in handling justice.
I don't think Hope is ruined either. For me, this Hope is far more tolerable than twirling wedding dress Hope, duped by Aiden's romance Hope. I get that a woman can be desperate for love thinking they have been abandoned and feel so alone. But without the stubborn Hope doing her own search, the part Tomsell apparently refused to write, it was simply not up to par when it comes to the essence of Hope. Her strength has always been there, but her stubborn curiosity and anger would have driven Hope to go looking for Bo.....even if just to tell him to "go to h*ll." I believe a GOOD writer would have had an amazing hit on their hands had they allowed the women, Hope and Kayla with go on their own or with Steve. But alas, victimizing women seems to be so much of what some writers THINK makes good drama.

Anyway this DH cr*p of Hope not being allowed to mourn Bo, not being allowed to mourn with her children or with D/J or with Bo's family sucked for the show, not for the character of Hope.

For me, pairing Hope with Rafe is what hurts her. She is so much more interesting than him. I have tried. I am sure GG is a nice person. Rafe does nothing for me.........I am just too spoiled with great leading men, like Bo, Steve, etc. It takes a while to build a strong leading man....and I am not sure present day writing teams have the time or talent to do it.
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Kirk
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Captain Kirk

Fridays episode goes to show what even average to good writing can do for a show. It was so much better than anything since at least December. At least for now I can look forward to enjoying my soap again for the next 5 or 6 months. While watching the episode I kept asking myself where was this conversation and damn that was well written and left me wanting more. Just pisses me off it won't last!

And that hack Dena can eat my asshole as I shit all over face as she has shit all over my soap.
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Hugo


Kirk
Feb 29 2016, 04:09 AM
Fridays episode goes to show what even average to good writing can do for a show. It was so much better than anything since at least December. At least for now I can look forward to enjoying my soap again for the next 5 or 6 months. While watching the episode I kept asking myself where was this conversation and damn that was well written and left me wanting more. Just pisses me off it won't last!

And that hack Dena can eat my asshole as I shit all over face as she has shit all over my soap.
I think Josh is good at making the show exciting, he's a decent writer. But he has issues with the pacing, everything feels rushed, lots of beats are skipped.

And he always goes too far! It feels like his idea of a compelling story is to kill off the good guys or having the good guys commit terrible crimes like murders and rapes. It's not all on him, there are producers and executives who should tell him: "You can't do that, it's too dark/depressing. Or if you do that, you need to balance the show with lighter stories."
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